WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOaaaaaaaaaaa
thats a LONG fall for Gandalf, I hope he's smart and landed ON the Balrog.
Comment by aragorn17 - November 16, 2000 @ 11:31 PM - Rated a 5
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOaaaaaaaaaaa
thats a LONG fall for Gandalf, I hope he's smart and landed ON the Balrog.
Comment by aragorn17 - November 16, 2000 @ 11:31 PM - Rated a 5
Gandalf {call me mr. potty mouth}ed that Balrog up bad, too bad we don't get to see him kill it.
Comment by aragorn17 - December 6, 2000 @ 12:03 PM - Rated a 5
Gandalf {call me mr. potty mouth}ed that Balrog up bad, too bad we don't get to see him kill it.
Comment by aragorn17 - December 6, 2000 @ 12:03 PM - Rated a 5
The Balrog was similar to an lizard or something, and he didn't have armor on. He's something like a naked bird, a gigantic one, and has claws instead of bird's feet, and fangs and all that, and is all black, and at the end of the fall, Gandalf described him as slimy and cold (after he splashed into the black lake), and his fire was quenched. Thus, Balrog must be, in a way, similar to a dragon... only doesn't have scales. If you disagree, then you need to read more.
Comment by mithril - December 7, 2000 @ 12:23 AM
The Balrog was similar to an lizard or something, and he didn't have armor on. He's something like a naked bird, a gigantic one, and has claws instead of bird's feet, and fangs and all that, and is all black, and at the end of the fall, Gandalf described him as slimy and cold (after he splashed into the black lake), and his fire was quenched. Thus, Balrog must be, in a way, similar to a dragon... only doesn't have scales. If you disagree, then you need to read more.
Comment by mithril - December 7, 2000 @ 12:23 AM
Comment by RobertPlant - May 22, 2001 @ 4:30 PM - Rated a 5
Comment by RobertPlant - May 22, 2001 @ 4:30 PM - Rated a 5
Just awesome. To "mithril": Anyone who con- siders John Howe a "moron" is the greatest moron of all. You should be ashamed of your- self.
Comment by RWeiss - May 30, 2001 @ 7:02 PM - Rated a 5
Just awesome. To "mithril": Anyone who con- siders John Howe a "moron" is the greatest moron of all. You should be ashamed of your- self.
Comment by RWeiss - May 30, 2001 @ 7:02 PM - Rated a 5
Mithril....where are the bird's feet you speak of? I only see the claws you say should be present, clenched into half-fists. I am puzzled by your criticism of such an awesome peice of work.
Comment by magnus_alpha - June 6, 2001 @ 10:52 PM - Rated a 5
Mithril....where are the bird's feet you speak of? I only see the claws you say should be present, clenched into half-fists. I am puzzled by your criticism of such an awesome peice of work.
Comment by magnus_alpha - June 6, 2001 @ 10:52 PM - Rated a 5
Howe is a great artist and that mithril is really dumb. The picture is great, one of the best I've seen on the web. HAIL, HAIL HOWE!
Comment by Anduril_666 - June 11, 2001 @ 9:02 AM - Rated a 5
Howe is a great artist and that mithril is really dumb. The picture is great, one of the best I've seen on the web. HAIL, HAIL HOWE!
Comment by Anduril_666 - June 11, 2001 @ 9:02 AM - Rated a 5
..the '0" in moron. To put a zero on this work because you need to see more slime?!? If you need more slime, I suggest a glimpse in the mirror would help your situation! Still, it looks awfully bright for falling down a pit. T.N. is still the master of shadow.
Comment by Menelvagorion - June 12, 2001 @ 6:45 PM - Rated a 4
..the '0" in moron. To put a zero on this work because you need to see more slime?!? If you need more slime, I suggest a glimpse in the mirror would help your situation! Still, it looks awfully bright for falling down a pit. T.N. is still the master of shadow.
Comment by Menelvagorion - June 12, 2001 @ 6:45 PM - Rated a 4
awsome, and for those of you that think that a balrog is serpentine YOU need to read more. in the simrallion we learn that a balrog is of the same race as Gandalf,Ainur.alright now read this and decide what you think:
Balrogs Dread Servants of Melkor
Timeline:
Dates: Entered Arda at its beginning; most were destroyed in c. I 583 Race: Ainur Division: Maiar Meaning: 'Demons of Power' Other Names: Valaraukar
The Balrogs were spirits of fire seduced by Melkor in the beginning of Arda, and who dwelt in his northern fortress of Utumno. During the First Age, the Balrogs were the most feared of Morgoth's forces after the dragons. In appearance, the Balrogs were man-like, but fire streamed from them, and they were swathed in dark shadows. They carried whips of flame and induced great terror in friends and foes alike.
In the War of Wrath, Morgoth was assailed by the forces of the Valar. Most of the Balrogs were destroyed in that War, but some few escaped over the Blue Mountains and lay hid in Middle-earth. Durin's Bane, the creature that drove the Dwarves from Moria, was one of these.
The Balrogs Before the First Age
The Balrogs were in origin Maiar, of the same order as Sauron or Gandalf. Melkor corrupted them to his service in the distant past of the World, in the days of his splendour. They were originally gathered by him in his ancient fastness of Utumno during the time of the Lamps of the Valar. When this fortress was destroyed by the Valar, at least some fled and lurked in the pits of Angband (whether any of the original Balrogs were slain in the Valar's attack on Utumno is not known).
Balrogs in the First Age
When Melkor and Ungoliant escaped from Valinor three ages later with the Silmarils, the Balrogs were still to be found in the ruins of Angband. Ungoliant entrapped Melkor in her webs, demanding the Silmarils for herself, but the Balrogs issued from their hiding-place and rescued their lord.
The Balrogs were apparently first encountered by the Elves during the Dagor-nuin-Giliath in the first year of the First Age. After the great victory of the Noldor over Morgoth's Orcs, Fëanor pressed on towards Angband, but the Balrogs came against him. He was mortally wounded by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs. Though his Sons beat off the demons of fire, Fëanor died of his wounds soon after, and his spirit departed for the Halls of Mandos.
The Appearance and Nature of Balrogs
Balrogs were spirits of fire - their hearts were of fire, we are told, and they carried whips of flame. They could, however, shroud themselves in darkness and shadow. The Balrog that Gandalf fought in Moria, for example, at first gave no hint of his fiery nature apart from the flames that issued from his nostrils.
‘...And Whether Balrogs Have Wings’
Do Balrogs have wings? It might seem a simple question, but (as so often with Tolkien's work) the more we examine it, the harder it is to answer. It's a question, too, that divides Tolkien's followers into two distinct camps - those who believe in Balrog wings, and those who deny their existence.
It's also a question that generates a lot of interest: we get more e-mail on this single topic than from any other article on the site. Accordingly, we've revised and expanded this section to cover the vexed 'Balrog wing' question in a fair amount of detail. If you're a casual browser, or you're not particularly interested in Balrog wings, you'll probably find far more information here than you need! Feel free to 'bail out' whenever you feel like it - this article is really written for those with a determined interest in the debate.
This article does its best to take an objective view, but it does reach a fairly definite conclusion (at least, as definite as the evidence allows). If you're one of those with strongly-held views on this question, then, there's a fair chance that you'll disagree. That's fine, of course - we're not looking to 'convert' anyone! - but at least we hope you'll find something of interest here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Quick Digression: What is ‘Shadow’? Before starting out, it will be helpful to clear up a common misconception. Within this debate, a number of references to 'shadow' crop up, and a lot of readers seem to take this in its modern sense - that is, a region of darkness caused by light being blocked. This isn't quite the sense Tolkien intends.
Where Balrogs are concerned, their 'shadow' isn't just a lack of light, but a region of darkness that they carry around with them. Exactly what its qualities are is a debatable point, but it can certainly flow into different shapes. These shadow-shapes, in fact, form the beginning of the whole debate.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Nature of the Argument The heart of the debate lies in The Fellowship of the Ring II 5, The Bridge of Khazad-dûm. This chapter is built around the Fellowship's disastrous encounter with the Balrog known only as Durin's Bane, the same creature that had driven the Dwarves from their ancient home centuries before. In particular, two references give rise to the discussion. The first describes the Balrog from Gandalf's point of view:
[1] "His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
On its own, this isn't particularly contentious. The Balrog's dark 'shadow' has assumed a form that appears at least somewhat winglike. The fact that it is explicitly 'like wings' means that this can't literally describe real wings. The problems start, though, with another reference that appears two paragraphs later:
[2] "...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..." The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
These are quite probably the most hotly debated words Tolkien ever wrote. This seems strange at first, because in fact most people agree that the meaning isn't particularly ambiguous, and that it's fairly obvious what the statement means. The dispute begins, though, with a curious fact: like an optical illusion, this quotation has two obvious interpretations. Whatever you think it means, and however sure you are, there are plenty of people who see it quite differently.
To one group of readers, 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) relates to the immediately preceding 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings' (1). To them, it just reinforces the preceding statement, and says nothing about any other kind of wings. On the opposite side of the debate, 'its wings were spread' (2) is not related to the preceding statement at all. Instead, it's a definite reference to the Balrog's real, physical wings.
The debate normally focuses on arguments about which of these two obvious interpretations is the correct one. It's probable, though, that neither is explicitly correct: how you read the passage depends on what you already presume a Balrog to look like. We're not trying to prove anything at this point, just to show that the structure of the sentence will bear either interpretation. One way of doing this is to replace the disputed 'wings' with terms that have a more certain status.
Let's start with 'arms'. There's absolutely no question that Balrogs had arms - it's so obvious that it seems odd to even mention it. Now, imagine that Tolkien had written 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast arms'. That's still obviously a simile, just like the real text (1). If that's followed shortly afterwards by 'its arms were spread', it seems natural to read this second reference as referring to its real arms, not its shadow-arms, even though we've just been told that it had 'arms' of shadow. This is how the pro-wings faction sees the text, because they assume that Balrogs have real wings, just as unquestionably as real arms.
We can simulate the alternative view with 'tentacles'. There's absolutely no evidence for Balrog tentacles, and its safe to presume that they didn't form any part of a Balrog's anatomy. Once again, 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast tentacles' reads without a problem as a simile. Now, though, when it's followed by 'its tentacles were spread', the natural interpretation is slightly different. We know for sure that there are no 'real' Balrog tentacles, so the statement reads much more easily as referring back to the preceding simile: it must mean 'tentacles of shadow'. This is the anti-wings position: because they assume that Balrogs have no real wings, they naturally see 'its wings' as an extension of the earlier passage.
You might not agree with both of these interpretations, but its fair bet that the one you do agree with is the one you already presume is correct. That's all we're arguing here - that the interpretation depends on an underlying presumption about Balrog wings, whether for or against.
Since there doesn't seem to be anything decisive in the sentence structure itself, it follows that arguments based on this passage alone must be circular. On the one side: 'Assuming Balrogs have real wings, then the passage must be meant literally, therefore Balrogs have real wings'. On the other: 'Assuming Balrogs have no real wings, then the passage must be meant figuratively, therefore Balrogs have no real wings'. As far as this passage is concerned, whatever you assume about Balrog wings inevitably turns out to be true.
This isn't much help, but fortunately 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) isn't the only evidence to consider. Let's move on to look at the rest of the cases for, and against, real Balrog wings.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Case For Balrog Wings Having established that 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) can't realistically be used as an argument for (or against) real wings, we can proceed to see what evidence actually can be produced.
Argument One: Its Wings Were Spread From Wall to Wall
It's a characteristic of the debate that this resilient passage reappears very regularly in pro-wing arguments, whatever counterarguments are put up against it. It's only fair, then, to allow it another quick airing before moving on. Those who propose it as proof consider that it is unambiguously literal, and cannot be interpreted otherwise.
This position doesn't seem to stand up to detailed scrutiny. It isn't clear, for example, how a passage that has been subject to years of debate can realistically be described as unambiguous. Much more interesting, though, is the claim that it must be intended literally. This presumably means that Tolkien would have written 'its wings of shadow were spread...', or something of the kind, if that is what he had meant. Consider the following, though:
[3] "Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company" The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
This occurs just a few pages before Gandalf's encounter with the Balrog, and of course its meaning is obvious: Gandalf has been thrown down the steps by a force from above. This is a metaphor: nobody would claim that Gandalf literally 'flew'. The text, though, doesn't say 'Gandalf seemed to come flying', it says unequivocally that he 'came flying'. Those who insist on a literal reading of one passage, must logically insist on a literal reading of this passage too. The only consistent conclusion is that, if 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) proves that Balrogs have real wings, then 'Gandalf came flying down the steps' (3) proves that Gandalf not only could fly, but chose that moment to show off his talent.
Argument Two: ‘With Winged Speed’
Given the depth of debate on the issue, it may come as a surprise that 'Its wings were spread...' (2) is the only definite canonical evidence for Balrog wings. There is, though, a passage in The History of Middle-earth that is often produced as supporting evidence. Here it is:
[4] "Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire." The History of Middle-earth Volume X (Morgoth's Ring), The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Rape of the Silmarils
'They' are the Balrogs who rushed to save Melkor from Ungoliant immediately after his return to Middle-earth. This text does not appear in the published Silmarillion: it belongs to an unpublished variant, often claimed to have canonical priority over the published edition. To avoid interminable debate about canon and priority, we'll assume it does have priority the purposes of this argument.
Regardless of its canonical status, though, it isn't certain how this represents 'proof' of any kind: 'with winged speed' is unavoidably just a metaphor for 'very quickly'. There does seem to be some doubt about this - here's what the dictionary has to say:
[5] "metaphor n. application of name or descriptive term or phrase to an object or action to which it is imaginatively but not literally applicable" The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English
In other words, unless 'speed' can literally have wings (which it clearly can't), 'with winged speed' is a metaphor.
Just as before, we can clarify the structure of the sentence by extracting the Balrogs (whose nature is under question), and replacing them with more definite terms. First, imagine that the paragraph is about Eagles (which we know have wings and can fly), rather than Balrogs: there's no question that '[the Eagles] passed with winged speed over Hithlum' makes perfect sense. To try the opposite argument, we'll replace the Eagles with something that definitely doesn't have wings and can't fly: horsemen, say. This results in '[the horsemen] passed with winged speed over Hithlum'. Maybe it's a little more poetic, but it clearly isn't nonsense.
This is another case where the argument only serves to highlight the presumptions of its reader. If you already believe in Balrog wings, then 'with winged speed' might well seem to refer to them, but in fact there's nothing here that demands them.
Summing Up
The positive argument in favour of real Balrog wings at least has the merit of brevity. Essentially, it is that 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) and 'with winged speed' (4) can only possibly be interpreted as literal references to actual wings. As we've tried to show, though, there's no objective reason for drawing this conclusion. The pro-wings interpretation works if, and only if, you already assume that Balrog wings exist.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Case Against Balrog Wings If there's no undeniable case for Balrog wings, its important to realize that neither is there any undeniable evidence against them. Instead, the contrary argument is based on a range of objections: references that apparently contradict the idea of Balrog wings. Of these, there are two particularly strong examples.
Objection One: Balrogs Don't Fly
There is no point anywhere in Tolkien's work where he describes a Balrog as flying. Even in situations where it would be a huge advantage to take to the air, the Balrogs remain earthbound. To illustrate, consider Gandalf's encounter with Durin's Bane. This Balrog faces two obstacles, a fiery fissure, and then a chasm crossed by a narrow bridge. These should present no problem to a winged creature, but its reaction is instructive.
[6] "Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure." The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
...and then...
"It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge..." The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
Later, that same Balrog finds itself on a mountain-top, fighting for its life. According to Gandalf's later report of the incident:
[7] "I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place, and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin." The Two Towers III 5 The White Rider
If he could fly, the Balrog could easily have saved itself. Instead, he crashes through the air to his doom. Durin's Bane isn't the only non-flying Balrog, either:
[8] "Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss." Quenta Silmarillion 23 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
The obvious question is: if Balrogs have real wings, why don't they use them?
There are two counterarguments. First, it is often suggested that 'with winged speed' (4) is a unique case where Balrogs are described as flying. We've already considered this point - it needn't detain us here.
The more common counterargument is that, in each case, the Balrogs were somehow prevented from using their wings. According to this position, Durin's Bane leaps the fissure and steps onto the bridge not because he has no wings, but because his wings were so vast that they were cramped and unusable. Against the two cases of Balrogs falling from mountains, it's suggested that they were exhausted from fighting, or their wings were somehow damaged or unusable. It's also sometimes put forward that Balrogs had real wings, but couldn't use them, or could only glide short distances rather than actually fly. This counterargument takes many forms, but all have one feature in common - once again, it presumes that the wings must exist.
There is, of course, a much simpler explanation for the Balrogs' apparent inability to fly. If we take the position that they just didn't have wings, the entire problem vanishes.
Objection Two: The Question of Scale
How big is a Balrog? If we follow the pro-wings side of the debate, and assume that it had real wings, its possible to come up at least some minimum figures. This is because of the classic 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2), which means that its wingspan must be at least the width of the hall in which it was standing. What do we know about the hall itself?
[9] "Before them was another cavernous hall. It was loftier and far longer than the one in which they had slept." [10] "He turned left and sped across the smooth floor of the hall. The distance was greater than it had looked." [11] "...a slender bridge of stone, without kerb or rail, that spanned the chasm with one curving spring of fifty feet." All from The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
The hall is gigantic. If the chasm is fifty feet wide (11), then the entire hall must be at least several hundred feet long. A 'chasm' is by definition longer than it is wide, and the chasm's length defines the width of the hall. So, we can derive a fairly reliable minimum width somewhere in the region of seventy-five to one hundred feet. This is supported by the text, which tells us that the hall was so wide that it needed pillars down the centre to support the roof:
[12] "Down the centre stalked a double line of towering pillars. They were carved like boles of mighty trees whose boughs upheld the roof..." The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
If the Balrog's wings were real, and literally spread 'from wall to wall' (2), its minimum wingspan is also somewhere approaching one hundred feet. This gives us a Balrog the size of a house, and remember that these are minimum values - it might be even bigger. Many would accept this without a problem - the idea of a gigantic Balrog is quite common, and it's often depicted as being thirty feet high or more, which is consistent with these estimates.
This is an important point, so we'll emphasise it. If the Balrog's wings are real, it follows necessarily that it must have been a monstrous creature with the wingspan of a small airliner.
The objection this raises is quite significant: it's very hard to explain how this behemoth had lived for more than a thousand years in an underground city designed for Dwarves. As a specific example, consider the Chamber of Mazarbul, which appears just before the Company's encounter with the Balrog. There's plenty of textual evidence about the entrance to this room. For example:
[13] "...orcs one after another leaped into the chamber." The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm (our italics)
...and, a moment later, they...
[14] "...clustered in the doorway." The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
This is obviously a fairly narrow opening. Somehow, though, the Balrog manages to follow the orcs into the Chamber through this entrance. If a Balrog is built on the huge scale we've just discussed, it could not possibly have used this narrow entrance.
The logic of this seems inescapable: we have to scale down the Balrog to get him through the door. He can still be of 'a great height' (2) - say ten feet tall or so - but he can't realistically be much larger than this. This idea is supported to an extent by this description from the The History of Middle-earth:
[15] "[the Balrog] strode to the fissure, no more than man-high yet terror seemed to go before it." The History of Middle-earth Volume VII (The Treason of Isengard), X The Mines of Moria II: The Bridge (our italics)
This is a rejected draft, so it can't be put forward as any kind of proof. It does give some insight, though, into the kind of scale that Tolkien had in mind for the Balrog. It's also borne out by the fact that he had to 'leap' (6) across a the fissure, and that he stepped onto a bridge (7) so narrow that Dwarves could only cross it in single file. These are the actions of a more-or-less man-sized creature, not a giant.
The question of scale is a serious objection to real Balrog wings. If 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) literally refers to real wings, then the Balrog must have been gigantic. For it to get into the Chamber of Mazarbul, though, it can't have been gigantic. If the Balrog isn't gigantic, then 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) can't refer to real wings.
For the anti-wings faction, this is probably as close to a 'proof' as it's possible to get.
Summing Up
These are by no means the only objections to real Balrog wings, but they're probably the strongest. Most others are circumstantial in nature and don't really advance the argument far (for example, 'imagine a creature with huge wings, spread wide, trying to handle a whirling whip of flame').
The two major objections, though, are very significant. Why don't Balrogs use their wings, if they have them? How does a house-sized Balrog get through an orc-sized doorway? These awkward questions only arise if Balrogs have real wings - if we assume that they don't, it's easy to escape these inconsistencies.
It's probably fair to say that there is no incontrovertible evidence for real wings, and that there at least two strong objections to their existence. Given the current state of the argument, then, the weight of evidence seems to come down pretty heavily on the 'no wings' side of the debate. 'Weight of evidence', though, isn't proof: there's always room for research and reinterpretation.
Wherever the evidence lies, its a fact that nobody knows for sure what the answer is. Only Tolkien himself could have told us, and he never made a definite statement on the topic. It seems appropriate, then, to finish with the most definite description of a Balrog he did provide:
[16] "What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape, maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it." The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
Comment by Gonedaft - June 19, 2001 @ 2:37 PM - Rated a 5
awsome, and for those of you that think that a balrog is serpentine YOU need to read more. in the simrallion we learn that a balrog is of the same race as Gandalf,Ainur.alright now read this and decide what you think:
Balrogs Dread Servants of Melkor
Timeline:
Dates: Entered Arda at its beginning; most were destroyed in c. I 583 Race: Ainur Division: Maiar Meaning: 'Demons of Power' Other Names: Valaraukar
The Balrogs were spirits of fire seduced by Melkor in the beginning of Arda, and who dwelt in his northern fortress of Utumno. During the First Age, the Balrogs were the most feared of Morgoth's forces after the dragons. In appearance, the Balrogs were man-like, but fire streamed from them, and they were swathed in dark shadows. They carried whips of flame and induced great terror in friends and foes alike.
In the War of Wrath, Morgoth was assailed by the forces of the Valar. Most of the Balrogs were destroyed in that War, but some few escaped over the Blue Mountains and lay hid in Middle-earth. Durin's Bane, the creature that drove the Dwarves from Moria, was one of these.
The Balrogs Before the First Age
The Balrogs were in origin Maiar, of the same order as Sauron or Gandalf. Melkor corrupted them to his service in the distant past of the World, in the days of his splendour. They were originally gathered by him in his ancient fastness of Utumno during the time of the Lamps of the Valar. When this fortress was destroyed by the Valar, at least some fled and lurked in the pits of Angband (whether any of the original Balrogs were slain in the Valar's attack on Utumno is not known).
Balrogs in the First Age
When Melkor and Ungoliant escaped from Valinor three ages later with the Silmarils, the Balrogs were still to be found in the ruins of Angband. Ungoliant entrapped Melkor in her webs, demanding the Silmarils for herself, but the Balrogs issued from their hiding-place and rescued their lord.
The Balrogs were apparently first encountered by the Elves during the Dagor-nuin-Giliath in the first year of the First Age. After the great victory of the Noldor over Morgoth's Orcs, Fëanor pressed on towards Angband, but the Balrogs came against him. He was mortally wounded by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs. Though his Sons beat off the demons of fire, Fëanor died of his wounds soon after, and his spirit departed for the Halls of Mandos.
The Appearance and Nature of Balrogs
Balrogs were spirits of fire - their hearts were of fire, we are told, and they carried whips of flame. They could, however, shroud themselves in darkness and shadow. The Balrog that Gandalf fought in Moria, for example, at first gave no hint of his fiery nature apart from the flames that issued from his nostrils.
‘...And Whether Balrogs Have Wings’
Do Balrogs have wings? It might seem a simple question, but (as so often with Tolkien's work) the more we examine it, the harder it is to answer. It's a question, too, that divides Tolkien's followers into two distinct camps - those who believe in Balrog wings, and those who deny their existence.
It's also a question that generates a lot of interest: we get more e-mail on this single topic than from any other article on the site. Accordingly, we've revised and expanded this section to cover the vexed 'Balrog wing' question in a fair amount of detail. If you're a casual browser, or you're not particularly interested in Balrog wings, you'll probably find far more information here than you need! Feel free to 'bail out' whenever you feel like it - this article is really written for those with a determined interest in the debate.
This article does its best to take an objective view, but it does reach a fairly definite conclusion (at least, as definite as the evidence allows). If you're one of those with strongly-held views on this question, then, there's a fair chance that you'll disagree. That's fine, of course - we're not looking to 'convert' anyone! - but at least we hope you'll find something of interest here.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A Quick Digression: What is ‘Shadow’? Before starting out, it will be helpful to clear up a common misconception. Within this debate, a number of references to 'shadow' crop up, and a lot of readers seem to take this in its modern sense - that is, a region of darkness caused by light being blocked. This isn't quite the sense Tolkien intends.
Where Balrogs are concerned, their 'shadow' isn't just a lack of light, but a region of darkness that they carry around with them. Exactly what its qualities are is a debatable point, but it can certainly flow into different shapes. These shadow-shapes, in fact, form the beginning of the whole debate.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Nature of the Argument The heart of the debate lies in The Fellowship of the Ring II 5, The Bridge of Khazad-dûm. This chapter is built around the Fellowship's disastrous encounter with the Balrog known only as Durin's Bane, the same creature that had driven the Dwarves from their ancient home centuries before. In particular, two references give rise to the discussion. The first describes the Balrog from Gandalf's point of view:
[1] "His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
On its own, this isn't particularly contentious. The Balrog's dark 'shadow' has assumed a form that appears at least somewhat winglike. The fact that it is explicitly 'like wings' means that this can't literally describe real wings. The problems start, though, with another reference that appears two paragraphs later:
[2] "...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..." The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
These are quite probably the most hotly debated words Tolkien ever wrote. This seems strange at first, because in fact most people agree that the meaning isn't particularly ambiguous, and that it's fairly obvious what the statement means. The dispute begins, though, with a curious fact: like an optical illusion, this quotation has two obvious interpretations. Whatever you think it means, and however sure you are, there are plenty of people who see it quite differently.
To one group of readers, 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) relates to the immediately preceding 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings' (1). To them, it just reinforces the preceding statement, and says nothing about any other kind of wings. On the opposite side of the debate, 'its wings were spread' (2) is not related to the preceding statement at all. Instead, it's a definite reference to the Balrog's real, physical wings.
The debate normally focuses on arguments about which of these two obvious interpretations is the correct one. It's probable, though, that neither is explicitly correct: how you read the passage depends on what you already presume a Balrog to look like. We're not trying to prove anything at this point, just to show that the structure of the sentence will bear either interpretation. One way of doing this is to replace the disputed 'wings' with terms that have a more certain status.
Let's start with 'arms'. There's absolutely no question that Balrogs had arms - it's so obvious that it seems odd to even mention it. Now, imagine that Tolkien had written 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast arms'. That's still obviously a simile, just like the real text (1). If that's followed shortly afterwards by 'its arms were spread', it seems natural to read this second reference as referring to its real arms, not its shadow-arms, even though we've just been told that it had 'arms' of shadow. This is how the pro-wings faction sees the text, because they assume that Balrogs have real wings, just as unquestionably as real arms.
We can simulate the alternative view with 'tentacles'. There's absolutely no evidence for Balrog tentacles, and its safe to presume that they didn't form any part of a Balrog's anatomy. Once again, 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast tentacles' reads without a problem as a simile. Now, though, when it's followed by 'its tentacles were spread', the natural interpretation is slightly different. We know for sure that there are no 'real' Balrog tentacles, so the statement reads much more easily as referring back to the preceding simile: it must mean 'tentacles of shadow'. This is the anti-wings position: because they assume that Balrogs have no real wings, they naturally see 'its wings' as an extension of the earlier passage.
You might not agree with both of these interpretations, but its fair bet that the one you do agree with is the one you already presume is correct. That's all we're arguing here - that the interpretation depends on an underlying presumption about Balrog wings, whether for or against.
Since there doesn't seem to be anything decisive in the sentence structure itself, it follows that arguments based on this passage alone must be circular. On the one side: 'Assuming Balrogs have real wings, then the passage must be meant literally, therefore Balrogs have real wings'. On the other: 'Assuming Balrogs have no real wings, then the passage must be meant figuratively, therefore Balrogs have no real wings'. As far as this passage is concerned, whatever you assume about Balrog wings inevitably turns out to be true.
This isn't much help, but fortunately 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) isn't the only evidence to consider. Let's move on to look at the rest of the cases for, and against, real Balrog wings.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Case For Balrog Wings Having established that 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) can't realistically be used as an argument for (or against) real wings, we can proceed to see what evidence actually can be produced.
Argument One: Its Wings Were Spread From Wall to Wall
It's a characteristic of the debate that this resilient passage reappears very regularly in pro-wing arguments, whatever counterarguments are put up against it. It's only fair, then, to allow it another quick airing before moving on. Those who propose it as proof consider that it is unambiguously literal, and cannot be interpreted otherwise.
This position doesn't seem to stand up to detailed scrutiny. It isn't clear, for example, how a passage that has been subject to years of debate can realistically be described as unambiguous. Much more interesting, though, is the claim that it must be intended literally. This presumably means that Tolkien would have written 'its wings of shadow were spread...', or something of the kind, if that is what he had meant. Consider the following, though:
[3] "Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company" The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
This occurs just a few pages before Gandalf's encounter with the Balrog, and of course its meaning is obvious: Gandalf has been thrown down the steps by a force from above. This is a metaphor: nobody would claim that Gandalf literally 'flew'. The text, though, doesn't say 'Gandalf seemed to come flying', it says unequivocally that he 'came flying'. Those who insist on a literal reading of one passage, must logically insist on a literal reading of this passage too. The only consistent conclusion is that, if 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) proves that Balrogs have real wings, then 'Gandalf came flying down the steps' (3) proves that Gandalf not only could fly, but chose that moment to show off his talent.
Argument Two: ‘With Winged Speed’
Given the depth of debate on the issue, it may come as a surprise that 'Its wings were spread...' (2) is the only definite canonical evidence for Balrog wings. There is, though, a passage in The History of Middle-earth that is often produced as supporting evidence. Here it is:
[4] "Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire." The History of Middle-earth Volume X (Morgoth's Ring), The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Rape of the Silmarils
'They' are the Balrogs who rushed to save Melkor from Ungoliant immediately after his return to Middle-earth. This text does not appear in the published Silmarillion: it belongs to an unpublished variant, often claimed to have canonical priority over the published edition. To avoid interminable debate about canon and priority, we'll assume it does have priority the purposes of this argument.
Regardless of its canonical status, though, it isn't certain how this represents 'proof' of any kind: 'with winged speed' is unavoidably just a metaphor for 'very quickly'. There does seem to be some doubt about this - here's what the dictionary has to say:
[5] "metaphor n. application of name or descriptive term or phrase to an object or action to which it is imaginatively but not literally applicable" The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English
In other words, unless 'speed' can literally have wings (which it clearly can't), 'with winged speed' is a metaphor.
Just as before, we can clarify the structure of the sentence by extracting the Balrogs (whose nature is under question), and replacing them with more definite terms. First, imagine that the paragraph is about Eagles (which we know have wings and can fly), rather than Balrogs: there's no question that '[the Eagles] passed with winged speed over Hithlum' makes perfect sense. To try the opposite argument, we'll replace the Eagles with something that definitely doesn't have wings and can't fly: horsemen, say. This results in '[the horsemen] passed with winged speed over Hithlum'. Maybe it's a little more poetic, but it clearly isn't nonsense.
This is another case where the argument only serves to highlight the presumptions of its reader. If you already believe in Balrog wings, then 'with winged speed' might well seem to refer to them, but in fact there's nothing here that demands them.
Summing Up
The positive argument in favour of real Balrog wings at least has the merit of brevity. Essentially, it is that 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) and 'with winged speed' (4) can only possibly be interpreted as literal references to actual wings. As we've tried to show, though, there's no objective reason for drawing this conclusion. The pro-wings interpretation works if, and only if, you already assume that Balrog wings exist.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Case Against Balrog Wings If there's no undeniable case for Balrog wings, its important to realize that neither is there any undeniable evidence against them. Instead, the contrary argument is based on a range of objections: references that apparently contradict the idea of Balrog wings. Of these, there are two particularly strong examples.
Objection One: Balrogs Don't Fly
There is no point anywhere in Tolkien's work where he describes a Balrog as flying. Even in situations where it would be a huge advantage to take to the air, the Balrogs remain earthbound. To illustrate, consider Gandalf's encounter with Durin's Bane. This Balrog faces two obstacles, a fiery fissure, and then a chasm crossed by a narrow bridge. These should present no problem to a winged creature, but its reaction is instructive.
[6] "Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure." The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
...and then...
"It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge..." The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
Later, that same Balrog finds itself on a mountain-top, fighting for its life. According to Gandalf's later report of the incident:
[7] "I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place, and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin." The Two Towers III 5 The White Rider
If he could fly, the Balrog could easily have saved itself. Instead, he crashes through the air to his doom. Durin's Bane isn't the only non-flying Balrog, either:
[8] "Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss." Quenta Silmarillion 23 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
The obvious question is: if Balrogs have real wings, why don't they use them?
There are two counterarguments. First, it is often suggested that 'with winged speed' (4) is a unique case where Balrogs are described as flying. We've already considered this point - it needn't detain us here.
The more common counterargument is that, in each case, the Balrogs were somehow prevented from using their wings. According to this position, Durin's Bane leaps the fissure and steps onto the bridge not because he has no wings, but because his wings were so vast that they were cramped and unusable. Against the two cases of Balrogs falling from mountains, it's suggested that they were exhausted from fighting, or their wings were somehow damaged or unusable. It's also sometimes put forward that Balrogs had real wings, but couldn't use them, or could only glide short distances rather than actually fly. This counterargument takes many forms, but all have one feature in common - once again, it presumes that the wings must exist.
There is, of course, a much simpler explanation for the Balrogs' apparent inability to fly. If we take the position that they just didn't have wings, the entire problem vanishes.
Objection Two: The Question of Scale
How big is a Balrog? If we follow the pro-wings side of the debate, and assume that it had real wings, its possible to come up at least some minimum figures. This is because of the classic 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2), which means that its wingspan must be at least the width of the hall in which it was standing. What do we know about the hall itself?
[9] "Before them was another cavernous hall. It was loftier and far longer than the one in which they had slept." [10] "He turned left and sped across the smooth floor of the hall. The distance was greater than it had looked." [11] "...a slender bridge of stone, without kerb or rail, that spanned the chasm with one curving spring of fifty feet." All from The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
The hall is gigantic. If the chasm is fifty feet wide (11), then the entire hall must be at least several hundred feet long. A 'chasm' is by definition longer than it is wide, and the chasm's length defines the width of the hall. So, we can derive a fairly reliable minimum width somewhere in the region of seventy-five to one hundred feet. This is supported by the text, which tells us that the hall was so wide that it needed pillars down the centre to support the roof:
[12] "Down the centre stalked a double line of towering pillars. They were carved like boles of mighty trees whose boughs upheld the roof..." The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
If the Balrog's wings were real, and literally spread 'from wall to wall' (2), its minimum wingspan is also somewhere approaching one hundred feet. This gives us a Balrog the size of a house, and remember that these are minimum values - it might be even bigger. Many would accept this without a problem - the idea of a gigantic Balrog is quite common, and it's often depicted as being thirty feet high or more, which is consistent with these estimates.
This is an important point, so we'll emphasise it. If the Balrog's wings are real, it follows necessarily that it must have been a monstrous creature with the wingspan of a small airliner.
The objection this raises is quite significant: it's very hard to explain how this behemoth had lived for more than a thousand years in an underground city designed for Dwarves. As a specific example, consider the Chamber of Mazarbul, which appears just before the Company's encounter with the Balrog. There's plenty of textual evidence about the entrance to this room. For example:
[13] "...orcs one after another leaped into the chamber." The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm (our italics)
...and, a moment later, they...
[14] "...clustered in the doorway." The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
This is obviously a fairly narrow opening. Somehow, though, the Balrog manages to follow the orcs into the Chamber through this entrance. If a Balrog is built on the huge scale we've just discussed, it could not possibly have used this narrow entrance.
The logic of this seems inescapable: we have to scale down the Balrog to get him through the door. He can still be of 'a great height' (2) - say ten feet tall or so - but he can't realistically be much larger than this. This idea is supported to an extent by this description from the The History of Middle-earth:
[15] "[the Balrog] strode to the fissure, no more than man-high yet terror seemed to go before it." The History of Middle-earth Volume VII (The Treason of Isengard), X The Mines of Moria II: The Bridge (our italics)
This is a rejected draft, so it can't be put forward as any kind of proof. It does give some insight, though, into the kind of scale that Tolkien had in mind for the Balrog. It's also borne out by the fact that he had to 'leap' (6) across a the fissure, and that he stepped onto a bridge (7) so narrow that Dwarves could only cross it in single file. These are the actions of a more-or-less man-sized creature, not a giant.
The question of scale is a serious objection to real Balrog wings. If 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) literally refers to real wings, then the Balrog must have been gigantic. For it to get into the Chamber of Mazarbul, though, it can't have been gigantic. If the Balrog isn't gigantic, then 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) can't refer to real wings.
For the anti-wings faction, this is probably as close to a 'proof' as it's possible to get.
Summing Up
These are by no means the only objections to real Balrog wings, but they're probably the strongest. Most others are circumstantial in nature and don't really advance the argument far (for example, 'imagine a creature with huge wings, spread wide, trying to handle a whirling whip of flame').
The two major objections, though, are very significant. Why don't Balrogs use their wings, if they have them? How does a house-sized Balrog get through an orc-sized doorway? These awkward questions only arise if Balrogs have real wings - if we assume that they don't, it's easy to escape these inconsistencies.
It's probably fair to say that there is no incontrovertible evidence for real wings, and that there at least two strong objections to their existence. Given the current state of the argument, then, the weight of evidence seems to come down pretty heavily on the 'no wings' side of the debate. 'Weight of evidence', though, isn't proof: there's always room for research and reinterpretation.
Wherever the evidence lies, its a fact that nobody knows for sure what the answer is. Only Tolkien himself could have told us, and he never made a definite statement on the topic. It seems appropriate, then, to finish with the most definite description of a Balrog he did provide:
[16] "What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape, maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it." The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
Comment by Gonedaft - June 19, 2001 @ 2:37 PM - Rated a 5
Ok, Mithril. Even if you WERE right, zero?!?! Do you even care about artistic ability? Anyway that is a really good picture. 5 to Howe!
Comment by nazgulgirl - June 27, 2001 @ 8:28 AM - Rated a 5
Ok, Mithril. Even if you WERE right, zero?!?! Do you even care about artistic ability? Anyway that is a really good picture. 5 to Howe!
Comment by nazgulgirl - June 27, 2001 @ 8:28 AM - Rated a 5
Nice essay on Balrogs, Gonedaft! I really enjoyed reading it. : ) As for the picture, well Gandalf is not quite like I imagine him, neither is the Balrog, but we have to accept artistic liberty. Having that in mind I cannot give it less than a 5 for the greatness of the artwork!
Comment by Laurelindorien - July 3, 2001 @ 3:11 AM - Rated a 5
Nice essay on Balrogs, Gonedaft! I really enjoyed reading it. : ) As for the picture, well Gandalf is not quite like I imagine him, neither is the Balrog, but we have to accept artistic liberty. Having that in mind I cannot give it less than a 5 for the greatness of the artwork!
Comment by Laurelindorien - July 3, 2001 @ 3:11 AM - Rated a 5
definetly an awesome renderingof one of my fav. scenes from the book. yes thanx for the essay gonedaft....it helped me clear up some of my own speculations on the balrog.
Comment by michel_delving - July 3, 2001 @ 5:03 AM - Rated a 5
definetly an awesome renderingof one of my fav. scenes from the book. yes thanx for the essay gonedaft....it helped me clear up some of my own speculations on the balrog.
Comment by michel_delving - July 3, 2001 @ 5:03 AM - Rated a 5
What I said above, it's not true to the book and is a Godzilla look-alike with wings and fur. FUR???!!! I wouldn't say Howe sucks totally, he has his moments and Gandalf looks OK in this picture, but the guy does have an obsession with armour and (apparently) fur.
The above picture does not show a creature of the Dark Flame, it's your average horned deamon with a bad hair-do. ):#
Comment by Vega - July 3, 2001 @ 5:07 AM
What I said above, it's not true to the book and is a Godzilla look-alike with wings and fur. FUR???!!! I wouldn't say Howe sucks totally, he has his moments and Gandalf looks OK in this picture, but the guy does have an obsession with armour and (apparently) fur.
The above picture does not show a creature of the Dark Flame, it's your average horned deamon with a bad hair-do. ):#
Comment by Vega - July 3, 2001 @ 5:07 AM
mithril.........
"moron"
?????????
in reference to John Howe????
let's all be thankful that Mithril has NOTHING to do with the films.
Comment by feanorean - July 3, 2001 @ 11:06 AM - Rated a 3
mithril.........
"moron"
?????????
in reference to John Howe????
let's all be thankful that Mithril has NOTHING to do with the films.
Comment by feanorean - July 3, 2001 @ 11:06 AM - Rated a 3
Well I admire the man, I have seen lots of his works and I would have to say this is not my favorite one but I like it. Still I agree there's too much light. A 4 will do this time.
Comment by GoldenSmaug - July 3, 2001 @ 1:48 PM - Rated a 4
Well I admire the man, I have seen lots of his works and I would have to say this is not my favorite one but I like it. Still I agree there's too much light. A 4 will do this time.
Comment by GoldenSmaug - July 3, 2001 @ 1:48 PM - Rated a 4
What I like:
captures action well nice sword
What I don't like.
-Balrog is too big! Bigger than Gandalf yes, but this looks silly. Size does not equal terror. -Armor? Wrong. -Hair? Wrong -tongue? Is that a tongue? What would he use a tongue like that for? -horns mooooooo! --Is that Gandalf or Jack Frost?
Howe is okay, but he is no Hildebrandt!
Comment by Frostgiant - July 3, 2001 @ 2:32 PM - Rated a 3
What I like:
captures action well nice sword
What I don't like.
-Balrog is too big! Bigger than Gandalf yes, but this looks silly. Size does not equal terror. -Armor? Wrong. -Hair? Wrong -tongue? Is that a tongue? What would he use a tongue like that for? -horns mooooooo! --Is that Gandalf or Jack Frost?
Howe is okay, but he is no Hildebrandt!
Comment by Frostgiant - July 3, 2001 @ 2:32 PM - Rated a 3
I like his work. I adore Gandalf. I think the Balrog ist the most frightening thing to come down the pike in a long time. But all that does nots add up to a five for me. There is something just not there for me in this picture. For the contents and the artistic endeavor, I give it a four.
Comment by Calma - July 3, 2001 @ 3:04 PM - Rated a 4
I like his work. I adore Gandalf. I think the Balrog ist the most frightening thing to come down the pike in a long time. But all that does nots add up to a five for me. There is something just not there for me in this picture. For the contents and the artistic endeavor, I give it a four.
Comment by Calma - July 3, 2001 @ 3:04 PM - Rated a 4
Since Balrogs are of the Ainur, is it not possible that they could alter their size and shape somewhat (or perhaps even considerably)? Still, I am entirely of the belief that balrogs were not winged. Frostgiant has already said much of what I would have: the armor, the hair, the tongue, and Gandalf's depictation all go against my favor, as well as the wings. Perhaps my largest issue against the picture is that Gandalf appears to be completely dominating the fight; this is not at all how I had picture The Descent. Remember, Gandalf died in the struggle as well, and had not wished to do battle if he could have avoided it. I vote a one on accuracy, a 3.5 on artistic merit. Overall, a two.
Comment by Lanklamenyn - July 3, 2001 @ 3:08 PM - Rated a 2
Since Balrogs are of the Ainur, is it not possible that they could alter their size and shape somewhat (or perhaps even considerably)? Still, I am entirely of the belief that balrogs were not winged. Frostgiant has already said much of what I would have: the armor, the hair, the tongue, and Gandalf's depictation all go against my favor, as well as the wings. Perhaps my largest issue against the picture is that Gandalf appears to be completely dominating the fight; this is not at all how I had picture The Descent. Remember, Gandalf died in the struggle as well, and had not wished to do battle if he could have avoided it. I vote a one on accuracy, a 3.5 on artistic merit. Overall, a two.
Comment by Lanklamenyn - July 3, 2001 @ 3:08 PM - Rated a 2
I envy your abilitys.You protayed both of them in a really good way.I love it.Compared to you I stink.Great job.
Comment by EvlimtheElf - July 3, 2001 @ 3:40 PM - Rated a 5
I envy your abilitys.You protayed both of them in a really good way.I love it.Compared to you I stink.Great job.
Comment by EvlimtheElf - July 3, 2001 @ 3:40 PM - Rated a 5
That's all I have to say. Except I have no idea where that "mithril" person got the idea that a Balrog was a giant bird-like thing...it was described as "man-shaped, but greater". Howe's Balrog's my favorite depiction of it.
Comment by Eric_Reese - July 3, 2001 @ 4:22 PM - Rated a 5
That's all I have to say. Except I have no idea where that "mithril" person got the idea that a Balrog was a giant bird-like thing...it was described as "man-shaped, but greater". Howe's Balrog's my favorite depiction of it.
Comment by Eric_Reese - July 3, 2001 @ 4:22 PM - Rated a 5
Howe is a very nice artist i'm sure. but he has totally messed up this picture. the ballrog looks more like a big lizard or a bat or something. And then gandalf who looks more like that white witch from the C.S lewis books. what is wrong with Howe? I think he really needs to re-read that chapter with the Balrog again before he paints any more. I would give it a -5 if i could!
Comment by Strider9 - July 4, 2001 @ 7:58 AM
Howe is a very nice artist i'm sure. but he has totally messed up this picture. the ballrog looks more like a big lizard or a bat or something. And then gandalf who looks more like that white witch from the C.S lewis books. what is wrong with Howe? I think he really needs to re-read that chapter with the Balrog again before he paints any more. I would give it a -5 if i could!
Comment by Strider9 - July 4, 2001 @ 7:58 AM
This pic certainly got everyone talking. My first gripe is to Gonedaft, could you please chose a nick a little more appropiate! gone daft indeed, I would give the picture a 5 just because it gave me the chance to read that wonderful essay you wrote. You certainly put myself firmly in the "no wings" camp. Thank you. :-)
Now to the pic. 1) The tounge, I have no problem with it really, most creatures etc have a tounge, it IS big, but so' s the balrog, which brings me to point 2 2) Size, even though I never really thought about it too hard I never pictured a balrog as more then 10 or 12 feet in size. This guy is on some serious steriods. 3) Armour. nope never ever. It just not in style this season balrog sweetie darling. 4) Fur, well maybe. Think about it, thick long black fur "could" (only could) help portray the balrog as having a shadow surrounding him, esp to those that had to face him. 5) Wings, see above by Gonedaft. 6) Gandalf. Forgive me for being stupid, but wasnt he Gandalf the GREY until after the fight with Durin's Bane, Grey cloak, greay beard etc. 7) Horns, well why not. If a balrog wanted to inspire terror, horns is a good start. 8) Lighting. the hall has always been in my mind as being a dirty red colour becuase I always pictures the orks carrying burning torches, the chasm I imagine is far darker, this one is too grey.
Well thats about it for me, except to say the Howe has still drawn (painted whatever) a better picture then I could ever even hope to do, and he has tackled a subject that is notoriously difficult (Balrogs) due to the lack of material on them. Well done.
I would really like to see more balrog related pics (if any others exist) in a series, likehte old man willow run we has earlier.
BTW did gandalf acutally die during his fight with the Balrog? I have always maintained he did, but my fiancee (who has got to the bit where gandalf returns in Two Towers) insisted that he didn't. Is there any text anywhere proving this? Or is it another Balrog's Wings mystery?
Comment by Magician_ - July 4, 2001 @ 3:49 PM - Rated a 4
This pic certainly got everyone talking. My first gripe is to Gonedaft, could you please chose a nick a little more appropiate! gone daft indeed, I would give the picture a 5 just because it gave me the chance to read that wonderful essay you wrote. You certainly put myself firmly in the "no wings" camp. Thank you. :-)
Now to the pic. 1) The tounge, I have no problem with it really, most creatures etc have a tounge, it IS big, but so' s the balrog, which brings me to point 2 2) Size, even though I never really thought about it too hard I never pictured a balrog as more then 10 or 12 feet in size. This guy is on some serious steriods. 3) Armour. nope never ever. It just not in style this season balrog sweetie darling. 4) Fur, well maybe. Think about it, thick long black fur "could" (only could) help portray the balrog as having a shadow surrounding him, esp to those that had to face him. 5) Wings, see above by Gonedaft. 6) Gandalf. Forgive me for being stupid, but wasnt he Gandalf the GREY until after the fight with Durin's Bane, Grey cloak, greay beard etc. 7) Horns, well why not. If a balrog wanted to inspire terror, horns is a good start. 8) Lighting. the hall has always been in my mind as being a dirty red colour becuase I always pictures the orks carrying burning torches, the chasm I imagine is far darker, this one is too grey.
Well thats about it for me, except to say the Howe has still drawn (painted whatever) a better picture then I could ever even hope to do, and he has tackled a subject that is notoriously difficult (Balrogs) due to the lack of material on them. Well done.
I would really like to see more balrog related pics (if any others exist) in a series, likehte old man willow run we has earlier.
BTW did gandalf acutally die during his fight with the Balrog? I have always maintained he did, but my fiancee (who has got to the bit where gandalf returns in Two Towers) insisted that he didn't. Is there any text anywhere proving this? Or is it another Balrog's Wings mystery?
Comment by Magician_ - July 4, 2001 @ 3:49 PM - Rated a 4
So the picture isn't a literal interperation of JRRT's writing, big DEAL! If you want an entirely literal work, Barlogs, Gandalf, and Middle-earth are all works of fiction. so the literal view would look like this...
I think the Barlog is a little to(o?) generic, Gandalf looks great, The light is eminating from Glamdring and the Barlog. I have never seen so many 5's and 0's.
Comment by VeiledAiel - July 4, 2001 @ 8:46 PM - Rated a 4
So the picture isn't a literal interperation of JRRT's writing, big DEAL! If you want an entirely literal work, Barlogs, Gandalf, and Middle-earth are all works of fiction. so the literal view would look like this...
I think the Barlog is a little to(o?) generic, Gandalf looks great, The light is eminating from Glamdring and the Barlog. I have never seen so many 5's and 0's.
Comment by VeiledAiel - July 4, 2001 @ 8:46 PM - Rated a 4
I agree with LaurelinDorien The balrog and Gandalf look nothing like i imagined them but we do have to give artistic liberty so i give this picture a 4 Howe, did a good job and the only thng that sould possib;y be changed is the Balrog, he should be changed to more of a firey demon who is dark and mysterious
Comment by Southern_Star - July 5, 2001 @ 4:44 AM - Rated a 4
I agree with LaurelinDorien The balrog and Gandalf look nothing like i imagined them but we do have to give artistic liberty so i give this picture a 4 Howe, did a good job and the only thng that sould possib;y be changed is the Balrog, he should be changed to more of a firey demon who is dark and mysterious
Comment by Southern_Star - July 5, 2001 @ 4:44 AM - Rated a 4
Balrogs having great shadow's like wings are enough to show that Balrogs had something at least like wings. This illustration is ok. The best I have seen and it's probably due to the fact that it is moving is Bashki's. No he didn't follow the reading as closely as he should, but the scene where Gandald confronted Balrog in Moria is pretty darn cool. P.S. I suggest we all refrain from personally insulting eachother here even if we disagree with others opinions. So far most of the illustrated interpretations I've seen have some redeeming quality. This one is ok.
:-)
Comment by wilyumtel - July 5, 2001 @ 4:05 PM - Rated a 3
Balrogs having great shadow's like wings are enough to show that Balrogs had something at least like wings. This illustration is ok. The best I have seen and it's probably due to the fact that it is moving is Bashki's. No he didn't follow the reading as closely as he should, but the scene where Gandald confronted Balrog in Moria is pretty darn cool. P.S. I suggest we all refrain from personally insulting eachother here even if we disagree with others opinions. So far most of the illustrated interpretations I've seen have some redeeming quality. This one is ok.
:-)
Comment by wilyumtel - July 5, 2001 @ 4:05 PM - Rated a 3
Hmmm, this picture is very innacurate--and where's the fire streaming from him, not to mention his whip. Despite all the mistakes, it's a great picture.
Accuracy: 0 Artistic Greatness: 5 Overall:3
Comment by Allowen - July 5, 2001 @ 6:03 PM - Rated a 3
Hmmm, this picture is very innacurate--and where's the fire streaming from him, not to mention his whip. Despite all the mistakes, it's a great picture.
Accuracy: 0 Artistic Greatness: 5 Overall:3
Comment by Allowen - July 5, 2001 @ 6:03 PM - Rated a 3
i really like it
Comment by Olwe - July 8, 2001 @ 10:59 PM - Rated a 5
i really like it
Comment by Olwe - July 8, 2001 @ 10:59 PM - Rated a 5
Even though the Balrog is very different from the way it was described, it's no less accurate than a lot of pictures I've seen on book jackets... and no matter what the accuracy is, the art quality is very high... I'd say, over all, a 4.
Comment by Planeswalker_Maloran - August 15, 2001 @ 7:12 PM - Rated a 4
Even though the Balrog is very different from the way it was described, it's no less accurate than a lot of pictures I've seen on book jackets... and no matter what the accuracy is, the art quality is very high... I'd say, over all, a 4.
Comment by Planeswalker_Maloran - August 15, 2001 @ 7:12 PM - Rated a 4
Comment by pirexian - August 20, 2001 @ 9:52 PM - Rated a 5
Comment by pirexian - August 20, 2001 @ 9:52 PM - Rated a 5
1:some balrogs do have wings not all.......this one isnt supposed to 2:the balrogs flames should consume gandalf and himself....in the book gandalf speaks of being consumed in the balrogs flame and then the balrogs flame is quenched by the deep water under moria.....duh 3:this balrog does have hair.....its supposed to......go by the book. 4:awsome pic man......sweet.....o hope the movie is gpood too.
Comment by AmNDell - August 28, 2001 @ 10:26 PM - Rated a 4
1:some balrogs do have wings not all.......this one isnt supposed to 2:the balrogs flames should consume gandalf and himself....in the book gandalf speaks of being consumed in the balrogs flame and then the balrogs flame is quenched by the deep water under moria.....duh 3:this balrog does have hair.....its supposed to......go by the book. 4:awsome pic man......sweet.....o hope the movie is gpood too.
Comment by AmNDell - August 28, 2001 @ 10:26 PM - Rated a 4
Comment by arcturus55 - September 28, 2001 @ 1:39 PM - Rated a 4
Comment by arcturus55 - September 28, 2001 @ 1:39 PM - Rated a 4
I as much as anyone like artists to remain true to the book's content. However, some people take this too far and become overheated over the minutia of the book. Although I agree that the picture does not fully convey my imagining of the story, I still appreciate the artistic content. It depicts Howe's artistic interpretation of the scene. Everyone has a different idea of what it was like. I believe this is the joy of Tolkien's work; the ability to conjure unique and vivid images in the readers mind.
I feel that many people need to loosen up on the subject of total accuracy or they will have a heart attack if they go to the new LOTR film. The images will not be totally acurate in this film, but overall people will still admire the artistic content and Jackson's imagining of Middle-Earth.
If you have actually seen a Balrog, then you can rant on like mad for ever about it's inside leg measurement and the length of it's little toe!! If you have not then only Prof JRRT can properly answer this problem.
Not Howe's best but I still like it.
Love the art and don't fret!!
Comment by Taniquetil - November 14, 2001 @ 5:08 PM - Rated a 4
I as much as anyone like artists to remain true to the book's content. However, some people take this too far and become overheated over the minutia of the book. Although I agree that the picture does not fully convey my imagining of the story, I still appreciate the artistic content. It depicts Howe's artistic interpretation of the scene. Everyone has a different idea of what it was like. I believe this is the joy of Tolkien's work; the ability to conjure unique and vivid images in the readers mind.
I feel that many people need to loosen up on the subject of total accuracy or they will have a heart attack if they go to the new LOTR film. The images will not be totally acurate in this film, but overall people will still admire the artistic content and Jackson's imagining of Middle-Earth.
If you have actually seen a Balrog, then you can rant on like mad for ever about it's inside leg measurement and the length of it's little toe!! If you have not then only Prof JRRT can properly answer this problem.
Not Howe's best but I still like it.
Love the art and don't fret!!
Comment by Taniquetil - November 14, 2001 @ 5:08 PM - Rated a 4
Nice Balrog
Comment by DieHard - November 16, 2001 @ 6:35 PM - Rated a 5
Nice Balrog
Comment by DieHard - November 16, 2001 @ 6:35 PM - Rated a 5
to mister some balrogs do have wings not all.......this one isnt supposed to 2:the balrogs flames should consume gandalf and himself....in the book gandalf speaks of being consumed in the balrogs flame and then the balrogs flame is quenched by the deep water under moria.....duh 3:this balrog does have hair.....its supposed to......go by the book.
let`s quote the book shall we? "It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, AND IT`S WINGS WERE SPREADFROM WALL TO WALL"!!! also I cannot find a single reference to hair or scales anywhere also the fire thing is incorect it merly says that the balrog whiped Gandalfs knees and they fell. And the flame went out let me quote "With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and the throngs lashed and curled about the wizards knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss. 'Fly, you fools!' he cried, and he was gone. and the fires went out, and blank darkness fell."
the fires on the bridge went out nothing about "the balrogs flames should consume gandalf and himself"
even if all that were true it is still a darn good picture and deserves a 7, but I will have to give it a 5
Comment by theringbearer - November 17, 2001 @ 9:14 PM - Rated a 5
to mister some balrogs do have wings not all.......this one isnt supposed to 2:the balrogs flames should consume gandalf and himself....in the book gandalf speaks of being consumed in the balrogs flame and then the balrogs flame is quenched by the deep water under moria.....duh 3:this balrog does have hair.....its supposed to......go by the book.
let`s quote the book shall we? "It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, AND IT`S WINGS WERE SPREADFROM WALL TO WALL"!!! also I cannot find a single reference to hair or scales anywhere also the fire thing is incorect it merly says that the balrog whiped Gandalfs knees and they fell. And the flame went out let me quote "With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and the throngs lashed and curled about the wizards knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss. 'Fly, you fools!' he cried, and he was gone. and the fires went out, and blank darkness fell."
the fires on the bridge went out nothing about "the balrogs flames should consume gandalf and himself"
even if all that were true it is still a darn good picture and deserves a 7, but I will have to give it a 5
Comment by theringbearer - November 17, 2001 @ 9:14 PM - Rated a 5
I like the way Gandalf is struggling with the beast, but I must admit that I pictured the Balrog differently, but as theringbearer said, it's still a fantastic picture.
Comment by Boromir83 - November 20, 2001 @ 7:27 AM - Rated a 5
I like the way Gandalf is struggling with the beast, but I must admit that I pictured the Balrog differently, but as theringbearer said, it's still a fantastic picture.
Comment by Boromir83 - November 20, 2001 @ 7:27 AM - Rated a 5
Go Gandalf!!
Comment by samwise-gamgee - January 18, 2002 @ 6:42 PM - Rated a 5
Go Gandalf!!
Comment by samwise-gamgee - January 18, 2002 @ 6:42 PM - Rated a 5
Comment by tookofsmials - February 26, 2002 @ 1:36 AM
Comment by tookofsmials - February 26, 2002 @ 1:36 AM
What an priceless picture!
Comment by snowlass - March 20, 2002 @ 12:40 AM - Rated a 5
What an priceless picture!
Comment by snowlass - March 20, 2002 @ 12:40 AM - Rated a 5
In the book, Gandalf explains to Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas that as he was falling, he was being burned by flames all around him. So, I always amagined the Balrog much farther down, with gandalf higher above, drowning in flame, but still being pulled down by the whip....Maybee it's just me. But I still give it a 5 'cause I really like it...
Comment by Gandalpollo - March 22, 2002 @ 11:27 AM - Rated a 5
In the book, Gandalf explains to Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas that as he was falling, he was being burned by flames all around him. So, I always amagined the Balrog much farther down, with gandalf higher above, drowning in flame, but still being pulled down by the whip....Maybee it's just me. But I still give it a 5 'cause I really like it...
Comment by Gandalpollo - March 22, 2002 @ 11:27 AM - Rated a 5
Everyone has his style, just like anime works as they differ greatly from real scenes. But see, real scenes comes from minds but not movies.Howe has the definitely right to alter the scene a tad bit in his mind. Mithril definitely have to learn his manners all over again. How can you call anyone a moron?Not unless yourself. You sure you can draw a pic as great as this? Not really. You are just jealous of Howe. You ought to review your words
Comment by snowlass - March 28, 2002 @ 7:48 AM
Everyone has his style, just like anime works as they differ greatly from real scenes. But see, real scenes comes from minds but not movies.Howe has the definitely right to alter the scene a tad bit in his mind. Mithril definitely have to learn his manners all over again. How can you call anyone a moron?Not unless yourself. You sure you can draw a pic as great as this? Not really. You are just jealous of Howe. You ought to review your words
Comment by snowlass - March 28, 2002 @ 7:48 AM
ouch, I hope he doesnt hurt himself.. *lol* Very good pic.
Comment by Silma - April 2, 2002 @ 1:07 PM - Rated a 5
ouch, I hope he doesnt hurt himself.. *lol* Very good pic.
Comment by Silma - April 2, 2002 @ 1:07 PM - Rated a 5
This one of Howes best pictures and I hate all who says they can do better ones themselves. I'd like to see mithril post an image of the same scene but better than this one!
Comment by TuorSonOfHuor - May 3, 2002 @ 9:24 AM - Rated a 5
This one of Howes best pictures and I hate all who says they can do better ones themselves. I'd like to see mithril post an image of the same scene but better than this one!
Comment by TuorSonOfHuor - May 3, 2002 @ 9:24 AM - Rated a 5
Yikes! That's very cool! Falling doesn't hurt...hehe...that Balrog gets his just desserts! Maybe someone should write a survival book..."How to Attack Monsterous Beasts"...
Comment by celadinebanks - July 9, 2002 @ 8:38 AM - Rated a 5
Yikes! That's very cool! Falling doesn't hurt...hehe...that Balrog gets his just desserts! Maybe someone should write a survival book..."How to Attack Monsterous Beasts"...
Comment by celadinebanks - July 9, 2002 @ 8:38 AM - Rated a 5
...for taking the time to write in such detail. Your efforts are much appreciated!
Comment by ahimsa - February 23, 2003 @ 7:52 PM
...for taking the time to write in such detail. Your efforts are much appreciated!
Comment by ahimsa - February 23, 2003 @ 7:52 PM
IT IS IN THE TOLKIEN'S BOOK OF ALL THE CREATURES IN MIDDLE EARTH, CHECK IT OUT SOME TIME.
Comment by TheshardsofNarsil - April 9, 2003 @ 4:23 PM - Rated a 5
IT IS IN THE TOLKIEN'S BOOK OF ALL THE CREATURES IN MIDDLE EARTH, CHECK IT OUT SOME TIME.
Comment by TheshardsofNarsil - April 9, 2003 @ 4:23 PM - Rated a 5
No. Howe is a really good artist, but this is not his best. It's just . . . . no.
DragonStella
Comment by DragonStella - July 3, 2003 @ 7:16 PM - Rated a 2
No. Howe is a really good artist, but this is not his best. It's just . . . . no.
DragonStella
Comment by DragonStella - July 3, 2003 @ 7:16 PM - Rated a 2
Dude that Gandalf was perfect, the Balrog was great, butyou should have more fire on the Balrog. In the future you should draw more battles like that.
Comment by KarateFrog13 - November 29, 2003 @ 7:25 PM - Rated a 5
It's original, cool, action packed, and a convincing rendition of a battle between two maiar. looks like something out of the Kalevala or the eldar edda. AND I LOVE WINGS ON BALROGS!!!! but the plate armour on the balrog's right shoulder and breast just messes it up! john howe has great style, but it's just alittle too conformist to conventional northern european design, and more often than not, his obsession with high gothic armour only makes his work look less like middle earth, and more generic.
i'll give it a 4 though, because i like the gandalf alot.
Comment by mellon_edhellen - February 2, 2004 @ 6:53 PM - Rated a 4
Grteat work! *speechless*
Comment by Samwise93 - March 18, 2004 @ 2:51 AM - Rated a 5
MArvellous!
Comment by Loopy - June 26, 2004 @ 3:45 PM - Rated a 5
this is just wonderful it shows why Howe is my fav
Comment by erinhue - June 26, 2004 @ 4:21 PM - Rated a 5
man this thing is friggen sweet, although i agree with Vega, that it shouldnt have armor and...fur. But Howe doesn't need criticism, he needs an award. i give it a five.
Comment by sherpa_derpa - January 19, 2006 @ 4:10 PM - Rated a 5
Fantastic pic!
But where is the flame?
Comment by Mad_Baggins - August 27, 2006 @ 6:32 AM - Rated a 4
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOaaaaaaaaaaa
thats a LONG fall for Gandalf, I hope he's smart and landed ON the Balrog.
Comment by aragorn17 - November 16, 2000 @ 11:31 PM - Rated a 5
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOaaaaaaaaaaa
thats a LONG fall for Gandalf, I hope he's smart and landed ON the Balrog.
Comment by aragorn17 - November 16, 2000 @ 11:31 PM - Rated a 5
Gandalf {call me mr. potty mouth}ed that Balrog up bad, too bad we don't get to see him kill it.
Comment by aragorn17 - December 6, 2000 @ 12:03 PM - Rated a 5
Gandalf {call me mr. potty mouth}ed that Balrog up bad, too bad we don't get to see him kill it.
Comment by aragorn17 - December 6, 2000 @ 12:03 PM - Rated a 5
The Balrog was similar to an lizard or something, and he didn't have armor on. He's something like a naked bird, a gigantic one, and has claws instead of bird's feet, and fangs and all that, and is all black, and at the end of the fall, Gandalf described him as slimy and cold (after he splashed into the black lake), and his fire was quenched. Thus, Balrog must be, in a way, similar to a dragon... only doesn't have scales. If you disagree, then you need to read more.
Comment by mithril - December 7, 2000 @ 12:23 AM
The Balrog was similar to an lizard or something, and he didn't have armor on. He's something like a naked bird, a gigantic one, and has claws instead of bird's feet, and fangs and all that, and is all black, and at the end of the fall, Gandalf described him as slimy and cold (after he splashed into the black lake), and his fire was quenched. Thus, Balrog must be, in a way, similar to a dragon... only doesn't have scales. If you disagree, then you need to read more.
Comment by mithril - December 7, 2000 @ 12:23 AM
Comment by RobertPlant - May 22, 2001 @ 4:30 PM - Rated a 5
Comment by RobertPlant - May 22, 2001 @ 4:30 PM - Rated a 5
Just awesome.
To "mithril": Anyone who con-
siders John Howe a "moron" is
the greatest moron of all.
You should be ashamed of your-
self.
Comment by RWeiss - May 30, 2001 @ 7:02 PM - Rated a 5
Just awesome.
To "mithril": Anyone who con-
siders John Howe a "moron" is
the greatest moron of all.
You should be ashamed of your-
self.
Comment by RWeiss - May 30, 2001 @ 7:02 PM - Rated a 5
Mithril....where are the bird's feet you speak of? I only see the claws you say should be present, clenched into half-fists. I am puzzled by your criticism of such an awesome peice of work.
Comment by magnus_alpha - June 6, 2001 @ 10:52 PM - Rated a 5
Mithril....where are the bird's feet you speak of? I only see the claws you say should be present, clenched into half-fists. I am puzzled by your criticism of such an awesome peice of work.
Comment by magnus_alpha - June 6, 2001 @ 10:52 PM - Rated a 5
Howe is a great artist and that mithril is really dumb. The picture is great, one of the best I've seen on the web. HAIL, HAIL HOWE!
Comment by Anduril_666 - June 11, 2001 @ 9:02 AM - Rated a 5
Howe is a great artist and that mithril is really dumb. The picture is great, one of the best I've seen on the web. HAIL, HAIL HOWE!
Comment by Anduril_666 - June 11, 2001 @ 9:02 AM - Rated a 5
..the '0" in moron. To put a zero on this work because you need to see more slime?!?
If you need more slime, I suggest a glimpse in the mirror would help your situation!
Still, it looks awfully bright for falling down a pit.
T.N. is still the master of shadow.
Comment by Menelvagorion - June 12, 2001 @ 6:45 PM - Rated a 4
..the '0" in moron. To put a zero on this work because you need to see more slime?!?
If you need more slime, I suggest a glimpse in the mirror would help your situation!
Still, it looks awfully bright for falling down a pit.
T.N. is still the master of shadow.
Comment by Menelvagorion - June 12, 2001 @ 6:45 PM - Rated a 4
awsome, and for those of you that think that a balrog is serpentine YOU need to read more. in the simrallion we learn that a balrog is of the same race as Gandalf,Ainur.alright now read this and decide what you think:
Balrogs
Dread Servants of Melkor
Timeline:
Dates: Entered Arda at its beginning; most were destroyed in c. I 583
Race: Ainur
Division: Maiar
Meaning: 'Demons of Power'
Other Names: Valaraukar
The Balrogs were spirits of fire seduced by Melkor in the beginning of Arda, and who dwelt in his northern fortress of Utumno. During the First Age, the Balrogs were the most feared of Morgoth's forces after the dragons.
In appearance, the Balrogs were man-like, but fire streamed from them, and they were swathed in dark shadows. They carried whips of flame and induced great terror in friends and foes alike.
In the War of Wrath, Morgoth was assailed by the forces of the Valar. Most of the Balrogs were destroyed in that War, but some few escaped over the Blue Mountains and lay hid in Middle-earth. Durin's Bane, the creature that drove the Dwarves from Moria, was one of these.
The Balrogs Before the First Age
The Balrogs were in origin Maiar, of the same order as Sauron or Gandalf. Melkor corrupted them to his service in the distant past of the World, in the days of his splendour. They were originally gathered by him in his ancient fastness of Utumno during the time of the Lamps of the Valar. When this fortress was destroyed by the Valar, at least some fled and lurked in the pits of Angband (whether any of the original Balrogs were slain in the Valar's attack on Utumno is not known).
Balrogs in the First Age
When Melkor and Ungoliant escaped from Valinor three ages later with the Silmarils, the Balrogs were still to be found in the ruins of Angband. Ungoliant entrapped Melkor in her webs, demanding the Silmarils for herself, but the Balrogs issued from their hiding-place and rescued their lord.
The Balrogs were apparently first encountered by the Elves during the Dagor-nuin-Giliath in the first year of the First Age. After the great victory of the Noldor over Morgoth's Orcs, Fëanor pressed on towards Angband, but the Balrogs came against him. He was mortally wounded by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs. Though his Sons beat off the demons of fire, Fëanor died of his wounds soon after, and his spirit departed for the Halls of Mandos.
The Appearance and Nature of Balrogs
Balrogs were spirits of fire - their hearts were of fire, we are told, and they carried whips of flame. They could, however, shroud themselves in darkness and shadow. The Balrog that Gandalf fought in Moria, for example, at first gave no hint of his fiery nature apart from the flames that issued from his nostrils.
‘...And Whether Balrogs Have Wings’
Do Balrogs have wings? It might seem a simple question, but (as so often with Tolkien's work) the more we examine it, the harder it is to answer. It's a question, too, that divides Tolkien's followers into two distinct camps - those who believe in Balrog wings, and those who deny their existence.
It's also a question that generates a lot of interest: we get more e-mail on this single topic than from any other article on the site. Accordingly, we've revised and expanded this section to cover the vexed 'Balrog wing' question in a fair amount of detail. If you're a casual browser, or you're not particularly interested in Balrog wings, you'll probably find far more information here than you need! Feel free to 'bail out' whenever you feel like it - this article is really written for those with a determined interest in the debate.
This article does its best to take an objective view, but it does reach a fairly definite conclusion (at least, as definite as the evidence allows). If you're one of those with strongly-held views on this question, then, there's a fair chance that you'll disagree. That's fine, of course - we're not looking to 'convert' anyone! - but at least we hope you'll find something of interest here.
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A Quick Digression: What is ‘Shadow’?
Before starting out, it will be helpful to clear up a common misconception. Within this debate, a number of references to 'shadow' crop up, and a lot of readers seem to take this in its modern sense - that is, a region of darkness caused by light being blocked. This isn't quite the sense Tolkien intends.
Where Balrogs are concerned, their 'shadow' isn't just a lack of light, but a region of darkness that they carry around with them. Exactly what its qualities are is a debatable point, but it can certainly flow into different shapes. These shadow-shapes, in fact, form the beginning of the whole debate.
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The Nature of the Argument
The heart of the debate lies in The Fellowship of the Ring II 5, The Bridge of Khazad-dûm. This chapter is built around the Fellowship's disastrous encounter with the Balrog known only as Durin's Bane, the same creature that had driven the Dwarves from their ancient home centuries before. In particular, two references give rise to the discussion. The first describes the Balrog from Gandalf's point of view:
[1] "His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
On its own, this isn't particularly contentious. The Balrog's dark 'shadow' has assumed a form that appears at least somewhat winglike. The fact that it is explicitly 'like wings' means that this can't literally describe real wings. The problems start, though, with another reference that appears two paragraphs later:
[2] "...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
These are quite probably the most hotly debated words Tolkien ever wrote. This seems strange at first, because in fact most people agree that the meaning isn't particularly ambiguous, and that it's fairly obvious what the statement means. The dispute begins, though, with a curious fact: like an optical illusion, this quotation has two obvious interpretations. Whatever you think it means, and however sure you are, there are plenty of people who see it quite differently.
To one group of readers, 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) relates to the immediately preceding 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings' (1). To them, it just reinforces the preceding statement, and says nothing about any other kind of wings. On the opposite side of the debate, 'its wings were spread' (2) is not related to the preceding statement at all. Instead, it's a definite reference to the Balrog's real, physical wings.
The debate normally focuses on arguments about which of these two obvious interpretations is the correct one. It's probable, though, that neither is explicitly correct: how you read the passage depends on what you already presume a Balrog to look like. We're not trying to prove anything at this point, just to show that the structure of the sentence will bear either interpretation. One way of doing this is to replace the disputed 'wings' with terms that have a more certain status.
Let's start with 'arms'. There's absolutely no question that Balrogs had arms - it's so obvious that it seems odd to even mention it. Now, imagine that Tolkien had written 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast arms'. That's still obviously a simile, just like the real text (1). If that's followed shortly afterwards by 'its arms were spread', it seems natural to read this second reference as referring to its real arms, not its shadow-arms, even though we've just been told that it had 'arms' of shadow. This is how the pro-wings faction sees the text, because they assume that Balrogs have real wings, just as unquestionably as real arms.
We can simulate the alternative view with 'tentacles'. There's absolutely no evidence for Balrog tentacles, and its safe to presume that they didn't form any part of a Balrog's anatomy. Once again, 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast tentacles' reads without a problem as a simile. Now, though, when it's followed by 'its tentacles were spread', the natural interpretation is slightly different. We know for sure that there are no 'real' Balrog tentacles, so the statement reads much more easily as referring back to the preceding simile: it must mean 'tentacles of shadow'. This is the anti-wings position: because they assume that Balrogs have no real wings, they naturally see 'its wings' as an extension of the earlier passage.
You might not agree with both of these interpretations, but its fair bet that the one you do agree with is the one you already presume is correct. That's all we're arguing here - that the interpretation depends on an underlying presumption about Balrog wings, whether for or against.
Since there doesn't seem to be anything decisive in the sentence structure itself, it follows that arguments based on this passage alone must be circular. On the one side: 'Assuming Balrogs have real wings, then the passage must be meant literally, therefore Balrogs have real wings'. On the other: 'Assuming Balrogs have no real wings, then the passage must be meant figuratively, therefore Balrogs have no real wings'. As far as this passage is concerned, whatever you assume about Balrog wings inevitably turns out to be true.
This isn't much help, but fortunately 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) isn't the only evidence to consider. Let's move on to look at the rest of the cases for, and against, real Balrog wings.
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The Case For Balrog Wings
Having established that 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) can't realistically be used as an argument for (or against) real wings, we can proceed to see what evidence actually can be produced.
Argument One: Its Wings Were Spread From Wall to Wall
It's a characteristic of the debate that this resilient passage reappears very regularly in pro-wing arguments, whatever counterarguments are put up against it. It's only fair, then, to allow it another quick airing before moving on. Those who propose it as proof consider that it is unambiguously literal, and cannot be interpreted otherwise.
This position doesn't seem to stand up to detailed scrutiny. It isn't clear, for example, how a passage that has been subject to years of debate can realistically be described as unambiguous. Much more interesting, though, is the claim that it must be intended literally. This presumably means that Tolkien would have written 'its wings of shadow were spread...', or something of the kind, if that is what he had meant. Consider the following, though:
[3] "Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company"
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
This occurs just a few pages before Gandalf's encounter with the Balrog, and of course its meaning is obvious: Gandalf has been thrown down the steps by a force from above. This is a metaphor: nobody would claim that Gandalf literally 'flew'. The text, though, doesn't say 'Gandalf seemed to come flying', it says unequivocally that he 'came flying'. Those who insist on a literal reading of one passage, must logically insist on a literal reading of this passage too. The only consistent conclusion is that, if 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) proves that Balrogs have real wings, then 'Gandalf came flying down the steps' (3) proves that Gandalf not only could fly, but chose that moment to show off his talent.
Argument Two: ‘With Winged Speed’
Given the depth of debate on the issue, it may come as a surprise that 'Its wings were spread...' (2) is the only definite canonical evidence for Balrog wings. There is, though, a passage in The History of Middle-earth that is often produced as supporting evidence. Here it is:
[4] "Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire."
The History of Middle-earth Volume X (Morgoth's Ring), The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Rape of the Silmarils
'They' are the Balrogs who rushed to save Melkor from Ungoliant immediately after his return to Middle-earth. This text does not appear in the published Silmarillion: it belongs to an unpublished variant, often claimed to have canonical priority over the published edition. To avoid interminable debate about canon and priority, we'll assume it does have priority the purposes of this argument.
Regardless of its canonical status, though, it isn't certain how this represents 'proof' of any kind: 'with winged speed' is unavoidably just a metaphor for 'very quickly'. There does seem to be some doubt about this - here's what the dictionary has to say:
[5] "metaphor n. application of name or descriptive term or phrase to an object or action to which it is imaginatively but not literally applicable"
The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English
In other words, unless 'speed' can literally have wings (which it clearly can't), 'with winged speed' is a metaphor.
Just as before, we can clarify the structure of the sentence by extracting the Balrogs (whose nature is under question), and replacing them with more definite terms. First, imagine that the paragraph is about Eagles (which we know have wings and can fly), rather than Balrogs: there's no question that '[the Eagles] passed with winged speed over Hithlum' makes perfect sense. To try the opposite argument, we'll replace the Eagles with something that definitely doesn't have wings and can't fly: horsemen, say. This results in '[the horsemen] passed with winged speed over Hithlum'. Maybe it's a little more poetic, but it clearly isn't nonsense.
This is another case where the argument only serves to highlight the presumptions of its reader. If you already believe in Balrog wings, then 'with winged speed' might well seem to refer to them, but in fact there's nothing here that demands them.
Summing Up
The positive argument in favour of real Balrog wings at least has the merit of brevity. Essentially, it is that 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) and 'with winged speed' (4) can only possibly be interpreted as literal references to actual wings. As we've tried to show, though, there's no objective reason for drawing this conclusion. The pro-wings interpretation works if, and only if, you already assume that Balrog wings exist.
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The Case Against Balrog Wings
If there's no undeniable case for Balrog wings, its important to realize that neither is there any undeniable evidence against them. Instead, the contrary argument is based on a range of objections: references that apparently contradict the idea of Balrog wings. Of these, there are two particularly strong examples.
Objection One: Balrogs Don't Fly
There is no point anywhere in Tolkien's work where he describes a Balrog as flying. Even in situations where it would be a huge advantage to take to the air, the Balrogs remain earthbound. To illustrate, consider Gandalf's encounter with Durin's Bane. This Balrog faces two obstacles, a fiery fissure, and then a chasm crossed by a narrow bridge. These should present no problem to a winged creature, but its reaction is instructive.
[6] "Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
...and then...
"It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge..."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
Later, that same Balrog finds itself on a mountain-top, fighting for its life. According to Gandalf's later report of the incident:
[7] "I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place, and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin."
The Two Towers III 5 The White Rider
If he could fly, the Balrog could easily have saved itself. Instead, he crashes through the air to his doom. Durin's Bane isn't the only non-flying Balrog, either:
[8] "Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss."
Quenta Silmarillion 23 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
The obvious question is: if Balrogs have real wings, why don't they use them?
There are two counterarguments. First, it is often suggested that 'with winged speed' (4) is a unique case where Balrogs are described as flying. We've already considered this point - it needn't detain us here.
The more common counterargument is that, in each case, the Balrogs were somehow prevented from using their wings. According to this position, Durin's Bane leaps the fissure and steps onto the bridge not because he has no wings, but because his wings were so vast that they were cramped and unusable. Against the two cases of Balrogs falling from mountains, it's suggested that they were exhausted from fighting, or their wings were somehow damaged or unusable. It's also sometimes put forward that Balrogs had real wings, but couldn't use them, or could only glide short distances rather than actually fly. This counterargument takes many forms, but all have one feature in common - once again, it presumes that the wings must exist.
There is, of course, a much simpler explanation for the Balrogs' apparent inability to fly. If we take the position that they just didn't have wings, the entire problem vanishes.
Objection Two: The Question of Scale
How big is a Balrog? If we follow the pro-wings side of the debate, and assume that it had real wings, its possible to come up at least some minimum figures. This is because of the classic 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2), which means that its wingspan must be at least the width of the hall in which it was standing. What do we know about the hall itself?
[9] "Before them was another cavernous hall. It was loftier and far longer than the one in which they had slept."
[10] "He turned left and sped across the smooth floor of the hall. The distance was greater than it had looked."
[11] "...a slender bridge of stone, without kerb or rail, that spanned the chasm with one curving spring of fifty feet."
All from The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
The hall is gigantic. If the chasm is fifty feet wide (11), then the entire hall must be at least several hundred feet long. A 'chasm' is by definition longer than it is wide, and the chasm's length defines the width of the hall. So, we can derive a fairly reliable minimum width somewhere in the region of seventy-five to one hundred feet. This is supported by the text, which tells us that the hall was so wide that it needed pillars down the centre to support the roof:
[12] "Down the centre stalked a double line of towering pillars. They were carved like boles of mighty trees whose boughs upheld the roof..."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
If the Balrog's wings were real, and literally spread 'from wall to wall' (2), its minimum wingspan is also somewhere approaching one hundred feet. This gives us a Balrog the size of a house, and remember that these are minimum values - it might be even bigger. Many would accept this without a problem - the idea of a gigantic Balrog is quite common, and it's often depicted as being thirty feet high or more, which is consistent with these estimates.
This is an important point, so we'll emphasise it. If the Balrog's wings are real, it follows necessarily that it must have been a monstrous creature with the wingspan of a small airliner.
The objection this raises is quite significant: it's very hard to explain how this behemoth had lived for more than a thousand years in an underground city designed for Dwarves. As a specific example, consider the Chamber of Mazarbul, which appears just before the Company's encounter with the Balrog. There's plenty of textual evidence about the entrance to this room. For example:
[13] "...orcs one after another leaped into the chamber."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
(our italics)
...and, a moment later, they...
[14] "...clustered in the doorway."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
This is obviously a fairly narrow opening. Somehow, though, the Balrog manages to follow the orcs into the Chamber through this entrance. If a Balrog is built on the huge scale we've just discussed, it could not possibly have used this narrow entrance.
The logic of this seems inescapable: we have to scale down the Balrog to get him through the door. He can still be of 'a great height' (2) - say ten feet tall or so - but he can't realistically be much larger than this. This idea is supported to an extent by this description from the The History of Middle-earth:
[15] "[the Balrog] strode to the fissure, no more than man-high yet terror seemed to go before it."
The History of Middle-earth Volume VII (The Treason of Isengard), X The Mines of Moria II: The Bridge
(our italics)
This is a rejected draft, so it can't be put forward as any kind of proof. It does give some insight, though, into the kind of scale that Tolkien had in mind for the Balrog. It's also borne out by the fact that he had to 'leap' (6) across a the fissure, and that he stepped onto a bridge (7) so narrow that Dwarves could only cross it in single file. These are the actions of a more-or-less man-sized creature, not a giant.
The question of scale is a serious objection to real Balrog wings. If 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) literally refers to real wings, then the Balrog must have been gigantic. For it to get into the Chamber of Mazarbul, though, it can't have been gigantic. If the Balrog isn't gigantic, then 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) can't refer to real wings.
For the anti-wings faction, this is probably as close to a 'proof' as it's possible to get.
Summing Up
These are by no means the only objections to real Balrog wings, but they're probably the strongest. Most others are circumstantial in nature and don't really advance the argument far (for example, 'imagine a creature with huge wings, spread wide, trying to handle a whirling whip of flame').
The two major objections, though, are very significant. Why don't Balrogs use their wings, if they have them? How does a house-sized Balrog get through an orc-sized doorway? These awkward questions only arise if Balrogs have real wings - if we assume that they don't, it's easy to escape these inconsistencies.
It's probably fair to say that there is no incontrovertible evidence for real wings, and that there at least two strong objections to their existence. Given the current state of the argument, then, the weight of evidence seems to come down pretty heavily on the 'no wings' side of the debate. 'Weight of evidence', though, isn't proof: there's always room for research and reinterpretation.
Wherever the evidence lies, its a fact that nobody knows for sure what the answer is. Only Tolkien himself could have told us, and he never made a definite statement on the topic. It seems appropriate, then, to finish with the most definite description of a Balrog he did provide:
[16] "What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape, maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
Comment by Gonedaft - June 19, 2001 @ 2:37 PM - Rated a 5
awsome, and for those of you that think that a balrog is serpentine YOU need to read more. in the simrallion we learn that a balrog is of the same race as Gandalf,Ainur.alright now read this and decide what you think:
Balrogs
Dread Servants of Melkor
Timeline:
Dates: Entered Arda at its beginning; most were destroyed in c. I 583
Race: Ainur
Division: Maiar
Meaning: 'Demons of Power'
Other Names: Valaraukar
The Balrogs were spirits of fire seduced by Melkor in the beginning of Arda, and who dwelt in his northern fortress of Utumno. During the First Age, the Balrogs were the most feared of Morgoth's forces after the dragons.
In appearance, the Balrogs were man-like, but fire streamed from them, and they were swathed in dark shadows. They carried whips of flame and induced great terror in friends and foes alike.
In the War of Wrath, Morgoth was assailed by the forces of the Valar. Most of the Balrogs were destroyed in that War, but some few escaped over the Blue Mountains and lay hid in Middle-earth. Durin's Bane, the creature that drove the Dwarves from Moria, was one of these.
The Balrogs Before the First Age
The Balrogs were in origin Maiar, of the same order as Sauron or Gandalf. Melkor corrupted them to his service in the distant past of the World, in the days of his splendour. They were originally gathered by him in his ancient fastness of Utumno during the time of the Lamps of the Valar. When this fortress was destroyed by the Valar, at least some fled and lurked in the pits of Angband (whether any of the original Balrogs were slain in the Valar's attack on Utumno is not known).
Balrogs in the First Age
When Melkor and Ungoliant escaped from Valinor three ages later with the Silmarils, the Balrogs were still to be found in the ruins of Angband. Ungoliant entrapped Melkor in her webs, demanding the Silmarils for herself, but the Balrogs issued from their hiding-place and rescued their lord.
The Balrogs were apparently first encountered by the Elves during the Dagor-nuin-Giliath in the first year of the First Age. After the great victory of the Noldor over Morgoth's Orcs, Fëanor pressed on towards Angband, but the Balrogs came against him. He was mortally wounded by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs. Though his Sons beat off the demons of fire, Fëanor died of his wounds soon after, and his spirit departed for the Halls of Mandos.
The Appearance and Nature of Balrogs
Balrogs were spirits of fire - their hearts were of fire, we are told, and they carried whips of flame. They could, however, shroud themselves in darkness and shadow. The Balrog that Gandalf fought in Moria, for example, at first gave no hint of his fiery nature apart from the flames that issued from his nostrils.
‘...And Whether Balrogs Have Wings’
Do Balrogs have wings? It might seem a simple question, but (as so often with Tolkien's work) the more we examine it, the harder it is to answer. It's a question, too, that divides Tolkien's followers into two distinct camps - those who believe in Balrog wings, and those who deny their existence.
It's also a question that generates a lot of interest: we get more e-mail on this single topic than from any other article on the site. Accordingly, we've revised and expanded this section to cover the vexed 'Balrog wing' question in a fair amount of detail. If you're a casual browser, or you're not particularly interested in Balrog wings, you'll probably find far more information here than you need! Feel free to 'bail out' whenever you feel like it - this article is really written for those with a determined interest in the debate.
This article does its best to take an objective view, but it does reach a fairly definite conclusion (at least, as definite as the evidence allows). If you're one of those with strongly-held views on this question, then, there's a fair chance that you'll disagree. That's fine, of course - we're not looking to 'convert' anyone! - but at least we hope you'll find something of interest here.
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A Quick Digression: What is ‘Shadow’?
Before starting out, it will be helpful to clear up a common misconception. Within this debate, a number of references to 'shadow' crop up, and a lot of readers seem to take this in its modern sense - that is, a region of darkness caused by light being blocked. This isn't quite the sense Tolkien intends.
Where Balrogs are concerned, their 'shadow' isn't just a lack of light, but a region of darkness that they carry around with them. Exactly what its qualities are is a debatable point, but it can certainly flow into different shapes. These shadow-shapes, in fact, form the beginning of the whole debate.
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The Nature of the Argument
The heart of the debate lies in The Fellowship of the Ring II 5, The Bridge of Khazad-dûm. This chapter is built around the Fellowship's disastrous encounter with the Balrog known only as Durin's Bane, the same creature that had driven the Dwarves from their ancient home centuries before. In particular, two references give rise to the discussion. The first describes the Balrog from Gandalf's point of view:
[1] "His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
On its own, this isn't particularly contentious. The Balrog's dark 'shadow' has assumed a form that appears at least somewhat winglike. The fact that it is explicitly 'like wings' means that this can't literally describe real wings. The problems start, though, with another reference that appears two paragraphs later:
[2] "...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
These are quite probably the most hotly debated words Tolkien ever wrote. This seems strange at first, because in fact most people agree that the meaning isn't particularly ambiguous, and that it's fairly obvious what the statement means. The dispute begins, though, with a curious fact: like an optical illusion, this quotation has two obvious interpretations. Whatever you think it means, and however sure you are, there are plenty of people who see it quite differently.
To one group of readers, 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) relates to the immediately preceding 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings' (1). To them, it just reinforces the preceding statement, and says nothing about any other kind of wings. On the opposite side of the debate, 'its wings were spread' (2) is not related to the preceding statement at all. Instead, it's a definite reference to the Balrog's real, physical wings.
The debate normally focuses on arguments about which of these two obvious interpretations is the correct one. It's probable, though, that neither is explicitly correct: how you read the passage depends on what you already presume a Balrog to look like. We're not trying to prove anything at this point, just to show that the structure of the sentence will bear either interpretation. One way of doing this is to replace the disputed 'wings' with terms that have a more certain status.
Let's start with 'arms'. There's absolutely no question that Balrogs had arms - it's so obvious that it seems odd to even mention it. Now, imagine that Tolkien had written 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast arms'. That's still obviously a simile, just like the real text (1). If that's followed shortly afterwards by 'its arms were spread', it seems natural to read this second reference as referring to its real arms, not its shadow-arms, even though we've just been told that it had 'arms' of shadow. This is how the pro-wings faction sees the text, because they assume that Balrogs have real wings, just as unquestionably as real arms.
We can simulate the alternative view with 'tentacles'. There's absolutely no evidence for Balrog tentacles, and its safe to presume that they didn't form any part of a Balrog's anatomy. Once again, 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast tentacles' reads without a problem as a simile. Now, though, when it's followed by 'its tentacles were spread', the natural interpretation is slightly different. We know for sure that there are no 'real' Balrog tentacles, so the statement reads much more easily as referring back to the preceding simile: it must mean 'tentacles of shadow'. This is the anti-wings position: because they assume that Balrogs have no real wings, they naturally see 'its wings' as an extension of the earlier passage.
You might not agree with both of these interpretations, but its fair bet that the one you do agree with is the one you already presume is correct. That's all we're arguing here - that the interpretation depends on an underlying presumption about Balrog wings, whether for or against.
Since there doesn't seem to be anything decisive in the sentence structure itself, it follows that arguments based on this passage alone must be circular. On the one side: 'Assuming Balrogs have real wings, then the passage must be meant literally, therefore Balrogs have real wings'. On the other: 'Assuming Balrogs have no real wings, then the passage must be meant figuratively, therefore Balrogs have no real wings'. As far as this passage is concerned, whatever you assume about Balrog wings inevitably turns out to be true.
This isn't much help, but fortunately 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) isn't the only evidence to consider. Let's move on to look at the rest of the cases for, and against, real Balrog wings.
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The Case For Balrog Wings
Having established that 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) can't realistically be used as an argument for (or against) real wings, we can proceed to see what evidence actually can be produced.
Argument One: Its Wings Were Spread From Wall to Wall
It's a characteristic of the debate that this resilient passage reappears very regularly in pro-wing arguments, whatever counterarguments are put up against it. It's only fair, then, to allow it another quick airing before moving on. Those who propose it as proof consider that it is unambiguously literal, and cannot be interpreted otherwise.
This position doesn't seem to stand up to detailed scrutiny. It isn't clear, for example, how a passage that has been subject to years of debate can realistically be described as unambiguous. Much more interesting, though, is the claim that it must be intended literally. This presumably means that Tolkien would have written 'its wings of shadow were spread...', or something of the kind, if that is what he had meant. Consider the following, though:
[3] "Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company"
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
This occurs just a few pages before Gandalf's encounter with the Balrog, and of course its meaning is obvious: Gandalf has been thrown down the steps by a force from above. This is a metaphor: nobody would claim that Gandalf literally 'flew'. The text, though, doesn't say 'Gandalf seemed to come flying', it says unequivocally that he 'came flying'. Those who insist on a literal reading of one passage, must logically insist on a literal reading of this passage too. The only consistent conclusion is that, if 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) proves that Balrogs have real wings, then 'Gandalf came flying down the steps' (3) proves that Gandalf not only could fly, but chose that moment to show off his talent.
Argument Two: ‘With Winged Speed’
Given the depth of debate on the issue, it may come as a surprise that 'Its wings were spread...' (2) is the only definite canonical evidence for Balrog wings. There is, though, a passage in The History of Middle-earth that is often produced as supporting evidence. Here it is:
[4] "Swiftly they arose, and they passed with winged speed over Hithlum, and they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire."
The History of Middle-earth Volume X (Morgoth's Ring), The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Rape of the Silmarils
'They' are the Balrogs who rushed to save Melkor from Ungoliant immediately after his return to Middle-earth. This text does not appear in the published Silmarillion: it belongs to an unpublished variant, often claimed to have canonical priority over the published edition. To avoid interminable debate about canon and priority, we'll assume it does have priority the purposes of this argument.
Regardless of its canonical status, though, it isn't certain how this represents 'proof' of any kind: 'with winged speed' is unavoidably just a metaphor for 'very quickly'. There does seem to be some doubt about this - here's what the dictionary has to say:
[5] "metaphor n. application of name or descriptive term or phrase to an object or action to which it is imaginatively but not literally applicable"
The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English
In other words, unless 'speed' can literally have wings (which it clearly can't), 'with winged speed' is a metaphor.
Just as before, we can clarify the structure of the sentence by extracting the Balrogs (whose nature is under question), and replacing them with more definite terms. First, imagine that the paragraph is about Eagles (which we know have wings and can fly), rather than Balrogs: there's no question that '[the Eagles] passed with winged speed over Hithlum' makes perfect sense. To try the opposite argument, we'll replace the Eagles with something that definitely doesn't have wings and can't fly: horsemen, say. This results in '[the horsemen] passed with winged speed over Hithlum'. Maybe it's a little more poetic, but it clearly isn't nonsense.
This is another case where the argument only serves to highlight the presumptions of its reader. If you already believe in Balrog wings, then 'with winged speed' might well seem to refer to them, but in fact there's nothing here that demands them.
Summing Up
The positive argument in favour of real Balrog wings at least has the merit of brevity. Essentially, it is that 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) and 'with winged speed' (4) can only possibly be interpreted as literal references to actual wings. As we've tried to show, though, there's no objective reason for drawing this conclusion. The pro-wings interpretation works if, and only if, you already assume that Balrog wings exist.
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The Case Against Balrog Wings
If there's no undeniable case for Balrog wings, its important to realize that neither is there any undeniable evidence against them. Instead, the contrary argument is based on a range of objections: references that apparently contradict the idea of Balrog wings. Of these, there are two particularly strong examples.
Objection One: Balrogs Don't Fly
There is no point anywhere in Tolkien's work where he describes a Balrog as flying. Even in situations where it would be a huge advantage to take to the air, the Balrogs remain earthbound. To illustrate, consider Gandalf's encounter with Durin's Bane. This Balrog faces two obstacles, a fiery fissure, and then a chasm crossed by a narrow bridge. These should present no problem to a winged creature, but its reaction is instructive.
[6] "Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
...and then...
"It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge..."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
Later, that same Balrog finds itself on a mountain-top, fighting for its life. According to Gandalf's later report of the incident:
[7] "I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place, and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin."
The Two Towers III 5 The White Rider
If he could fly, the Balrog could easily have saved itself. Instead, he crashes through the air to his doom. Durin's Bane isn't the only non-flying Balrog, either:
[8] "Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss."
Quenta Silmarillion 23 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
The obvious question is: if Balrogs have real wings, why don't they use them?
There are two counterarguments. First, it is often suggested that 'with winged speed' (4) is a unique case where Balrogs are described as flying. We've already considered this point - it needn't detain us here.
The more common counterargument is that, in each case, the Balrogs were somehow prevented from using their wings. According to this position, Durin's Bane leaps the fissure and steps onto the bridge not because he has no wings, but because his wings were so vast that they were cramped and unusable. Against the two cases of Balrogs falling from mountains, it's suggested that they were exhausted from fighting, or their wings were somehow damaged or unusable. It's also sometimes put forward that Balrogs had real wings, but couldn't use them, or could only glide short distances rather than actually fly. This counterargument takes many forms, but all have one feature in common - once again, it presumes that the wings must exist.
There is, of course, a much simpler explanation for the Balrogs' apparent inability to fly. If we take the position that they just didn't have wings, the entire problem vanishes.
Objection Two: The Question of Scale
How big is a Balrog? If we follow the pro-wings side of the debate, and assume that it had real wings, its possible to come up at least some minimum figures. This is because of the classic 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2), which means that its wingspan must be at least the width of the hall in which it was standing. What do we know about the hall itself?
[9] "Before them was another cavernous hall. It was loftier and far longer than the one in which they had slept."
[10] "He turned left and sped across the smooth floor of the hall. The distance was greater than it had looked."
[11] "...a slender bridge of stone, without kerb or rail, that spanned the chasm with one curving spring of fifty feet."
All from The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
The hall is gigantic. If the chasm is fifty feet wide (11), then the entire hall must be at least several hundred feet long. A 'chasm' is by definition longer than it is wide, and the chasm's length defines the width of the hall. So, we can derive a fairly reliable minimum width somewhere in the region of seventy-five to one hundred feet. This is supported by the text, which tells us that the hall was so wide that it needed pillars down the centre to support the roof:
[12] "Down the centre stalked a double line of towering pillars. They were carved like boles of mighty trees whose boughs upheld the roof..."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
If the Balrog's wings were real, and literally spread 'from wall to wall' (2), its minimum wingspan is also somewhere approaching one hundred feet. This gives us a Balrog the size of a house, and remember that these are minimum values - it might be even bigger. Many would accept this without a problem - the idea of a gigantic Balrog is quite common, and it's often depicted as being thirty feet high or more, which is consistent with these estimates.
This is an important point, so we'll emphasise it. If the Balrog's wings are real, it follows necessarily that it must have been a monstrous creature with the wingspan of a small airliner.
The objection this raises is quite significant: it's very hard to explain how this behemoth had lived for more than a thousand years in an underground city designed for Dwarves. As a specific example, consider the Chamber of Mazarbul, which appears just before the Company's encounter with the Balrog. There's plenty of textual evidence about the entrance to this room. For example:
[13] "...orcs one after another leaped into the chamber."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
(our italics)
...and, a moment later, they...
[14] "...clustered in the doorway."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
This is obviously a fairly narrow opening. Somehow, though, the Balrog manages to follow the orcs into the Chamber through this entrance. If a Balrog is built on the huge scale we've just discussed, it could not possibly have used this narrow entrance.
The logic of this seems inescapable: we have to scale down the Balrog to get him through the door. He can still be of 'a great height' (2) - say ten feet tall or so - but he can't realistically be much larger than this. This idea is supported to an extent by this description from the The History of Middle-earth:
[15] "[the Balrog] strode to the fissure, no more than man-high yet terror seemed to go before it."
The History of Middle-earth Volume VII (The Treason of Isengard), X The Mines of Moria II: The Bridge
(our italics)
This is a rejected draft, so it can't be put forward as any kind of proof. It does give some insight, though, into the kind of scale that Tolkien had in mind for the Balrog. It's also borne out by the fact that he had to 'leap' (6) across a the fissure, and that he stepped onto a bridge (7) so narrow that Dwarves could only cross it in single file. These are the actions of a more-or-less man-sized creature, not a giant.
The question of scale is a serious objection to real Balrog wings. If 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) literally refers to real wings, then the Balrog must have been gigantic. For it to get into the Chamber of Mazarbul, though, it can't have been gigantic. If the Balrog isn't gigantic, then 'its wings were spread from wall to wall' (2) can't refer to real wings.
For the anti-wings faction, this is probably as close to a 'proof' as it's possible to get.
Summing Up
These are by no means the only objections to real Balrog wings, but they're probably the strongest. Most others are circumstantial in nature and don't really advance the argument far (for example, 'imagine a creature with huge wings, spread wide, trying to handle a whirling whip of flame').
The two major objections, though, are very significant. Why don't Balrogs use their wings, if they have them? How does a house-sized Balrog get through an orc-sized doorway? These awkward questions only arise if Balrogs have real wings - if we assume that they don't, it's easy to escape these inconsistencies.
It's probably fair to say that there is no incontrovertible evidence for real wings, and that there at least two strong objections to their existence. Given the current state of the argument, then, the weight of evidence seems to come down pretty heavily on the 'no wings' side of the debate. 'Weight of evidence', though, isn't proof: there's always room for research and reinterpretation.
Wherever the evidence lies, its a fact that nobody knows for sure what the answer is. Only Tolkien himself could have told us, and he never made a definite statement on the topic. It seems appropriate, then, to finish with the most definite description of a Balrog he did provide:
[16] "What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape, maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it."
The Fellowship of the Ring II 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
Comment by Gonedaft - June 19, 2001 @ 2:37 PM - Rated a 5
Ok, Mithril. Even if you WERE right, zero?!?! Do you even care about artistic ability? Anyway that is a really good picture. 5 to Howe!
Comment by nazgulgirl - June 27, 2001 @ 8:28 AM - Rated a 5
Ok, Mithril. Even if you WERE right, zero?!?! Do you even care about artistic ability? Anyway that is a really good picture. 5 to Howe!
Comment by nazgulgirl - June 27, 2001 @ 8:28 AM - Rated a 5
Nice essay on Balrogs, Gonedaft! I really enjoyed reading it. : ) As for the picture, well Gandalf is not quite like I imagine him, neither is the Balrog, but we have to accept artistic liberty. Having that in mind I cannot give it less than a 5 for the greatness of the artwork!
Comment by Laurelindorien - July 3, 2001 @ 3:11 AM - Rated a 5
Nice essay on Balrogs, Gonedaft! I really enjoyed reading it. : ) As for the picture, well Gandalf is not quite like I imagine him, neither is the Balrog, but we have to accept artistic liberty. Having that in mind I cannot give it less than a 5 for the greatness of the artwork!
Comment by Laurelindorien - July 3, 2001 @ 3:11 AM - Rated a 5
definetly an awesome renderingof one of my fav. scenes from the book. yes thanx for the essay gonedaft....it helped me clear up some of my own speculations on the balrog.
Comment by michel_delving - July 3, 2001 @ 5:03 AM - Rated a 5
definetly an awesome renderingof one of my fav. scenes from the book. yes thanx for the essay gonedaft....it helped me clear up some of my own speculations on the balrog.
Comment by michel_delving - July 3, 2001 @ 5:03 AM - Rated a 5
What I said above, it's not true to the book and is a Godzilla look-alike with wings and fur. FUR???!!! I wouldn't say Howe sucks totally, he has his moments and Gandalf looks OK in this picture, but the guy does have an obsession with armour and (apparently) fur.
The above picture does not show a creature of the Dark Flame, it's your average horned deamon with a bad hair-do. ):#
Comment by Vega - July 3, 2001 @ 5:07 AM
What I said above, it's not true to the book and is a Godzilla look-alike with wings and fur. FUR???!!! I wouldn't say Howe sucks totally, he has his moments and Gandalf looks OK in this picture, but the guy does have an obsession with armour and (apparently) fur.
The above picture does not show a creature of the Dark Flame, it's your average horned deamon with a bad hair-do. ):#
Comment by Vega - July 3, 2001 @ 5:07 AM
mithril.........
"moron"
?????????
in reference to John Howe????
let's all be thankful that Mithril has NOTHING to do with the films.
Comment by feanorean - July 3, 2001 @ 11:06 AM - Rated a 3
mithril.........
"moron"
?????????
in reference to John Howe????
let's all be thankful that Mithril has NOTHING to do with the films.
Comment by feanorean - July 3, 2001 @ 11:06 AM - Rated a 3
Well I admire the man, I have seen lots of his works and I would have to say this is not my favorite one but I like it. Still I agree there's too much light. A 4 will do this time.
Comment by GoldenSmaug - July 3, 2001 @ 1:48 PM - Rated a 4
Well I admire the man, I have seen lots of his works and I would have to say this is not my favorite one but I like it. Still I agree there's too much light. A 4 will do this time.
Comment by GoldenSmaug - July 3, 2001 @ 1:48 PM - Rated a 4
What I like:
captures action well
nice sword
What I don't like.
-Balrog is too big! Bigger than Gandalf yes, but this looks silly. Size does not equal terror.
-Armor? Wrong.
-Hair? Wrong
-tongue? Is that a tongue? What would he use a tongue like that for?
-horns mooooooo!
--Is that Gandalf or Jack Frost?
Howe is okay, but he is no Hildebrandt!
Comment by Frostgiant - July 3, 2001 @ 2:32 PM - Rated a 3
What I like:
captures action well
nice sword
What I don't like.
-Balrog is too big! Bigger than Gandalf yes, but this looks silly. Size does not equal terror.
-Armor? Wrong.
-Hair? Wrong
-tongue? Is that a tongue? What would he use a tongue like that for?
-horns mooooooo!
--Is that Gandalf or Jack Frost?
Howe is okay, but he is no Hildebrandt!
Comment by Frostgiant - July 3, 2001 @ 2:32 PM - Rated a 3
I like his work. I adore Gandalf. I think the Balrog ist the most frightening thing to come down the pike in a long time. But all that does nots add up to a five for me. There is something just not there for me in this picture. For the contents and the artistic endeavor, I give it a four.
Comment by Calma - July 3, 2001 @ 3:04 PM - Rated a 4
I like his work. I adore Gandalf. I think the Balrog ist the most frightening thing to come down the pike in a long time. But all that does nots add up to a five for me. There is something just not there for me in this picture. For the contents and the artistic endeavor, I give it a four.
Comment by Calma - July 3, 2001 @ 3:04 PM - Rated a 4
Since Balrogs are of the Ainur, is it not possible that they could alter their size and shape somewhat (or perhaps even considerably)? Still, I am entirely of the belief that balrogs were not winged. Frostgiant has already said much of what I would have: the armor, the hair, the tongue, and Gandalf's depictation all go against my favor, as well as the wings. Perhaps my largest issue against the picture is that Gandalf appears to be completely dominating the fight; this is not at all how I had picture The Descent. Remember, Gandalf died in the struggle as well, and had not wished to do battle if he could have avoided it. I vote a one on accuracy, a 3.5 on artistic merit. Overall, a two.
Comment by Lanklamenyn - July 3, 2001 @ 3:08 PM - Rated a 2
Since Balrogs are of the Ainur, is it not possible that they could alter their size and shape somewhat (or perhaps even considerably)? Still, I am entirely of the belief that balrogs were not winged. Frostgiant has already said much of what I would have: the armor, the hair, the tongue, and Gandalf's depictation all go against my favor, as well as the wings. Perhaps my largest issue against the picture is that Gandalf appears to be completely dominating the fight; this is not at all how I had picture The Descent. Remember, Gandalf died in the struggle as well, and had not wished to do battle if he could have avoided it. I vote a one on accuracy, a 3.5 on artistic merit. Overall, a two.
Comment by Lanklamenyn - July 3, 2001 @ 3:08 PM - Rated a 2
I envy your abilitys.You protayed both of them in a really good way.I love it.Compared to you I stink.Great job.
Comment by EvlimtheElf - July 3, 2001 @ 3:40 PM - Rated a 5
I envy your abilitys.You protayed both of them in a really good way.I love it.Compared to you I stink.Great job.
Comment by EvlimtheElf - July 3, 2001 @ 3:40 PM - Rated a 5
That's all I have to say. Except I have no idea where that "mithril" person got the idea that a Balrog was a giant bird-like thing...it was described as "man-shaped, but greater". Howe's Balrog's my favorite depiction of it.
Comment by Eric_Reese - July 3, 2001 @ 4:22 PM - Rated a 5
That's all I have to say. Except I have no idea where that "mithril" person got the idea that a Balrog was a giant bird-like thing...it was described as "man-shaped, but greater". Howe's Balrog's my favorite depiction of it.
Comment by Eric_Reese - July 3, 2001 @ 4:22 PM - Rated a 5
Howe is a very nice artist i'm sure. but he has totally messed up this picture. the ballrog looks more like a big lizard or a bat or something. And then gandalf who looks more like that white witch from the C.S lewis books. what is wrong with Howe? I think he really needs to re-read that chapter with the Balrog again before he paints any more. I would give it a -5 if i could!
Comment by Strider9 - July 4, 2001 @ 7:58 AM
Howe is a very nice artist i'm sure. but he has totally messed up this picture. the ballrog looks more like a big lizard or a bat or something. And then gandalf who looks more like that white witch from the C.S lewis books. what is wrong with Howe? I think he really needs to re-read that chapter with the Balrog again before he paints any more. I would give it a -5 if i could!
Comment by Strider9 - July 4, 2001 @ 7:58 AM
This pic certainly got everyone talking. My first gripe is to Gonedaft, could you please chose a nick a little more appropiate! gone daft indeed, I would give the picture a 5 just because it gave me the chance to read that wonderful essay you wrote. You certainly put myself firmly in the "no wings" camp. Thank you. :-)
Now to the pic.
1) The tounge, I have no problem with it really, most creatures etc have a tounge, it IS big, but so' s the balrog, which brings me to point 2
2) Size, even though I never really thought about it too hard I never pictured a balrog as more then 10 or 12 feet in size. This guy is on some serious steriods.
3) Armour. nope never ever. It just not in style this season balrog sweetie darling.
4) Fur, well maybe. Think about it, thick long black fur "could" (only could) help portray the balrog as having a shadow surrounding him, esp to those that had to face him.
5) Wings, see above by Gonedaft.
6) Gandalf. Forgive me for being stupid, but wasnt he Gandalf the GREY until after the fight with Durin's Bane, Grey cloak, greay beard etc.
7) Horns, well why not. If a balrog wanted to inspire terror, horns is a good start.
8) Lighting. the hall has always been in my mind as being a dirty red colour becuase I always pictures the orks carrying burning torches, the chasm I imagine is far darker, this one is too grey.
Well thats about it for me, except to say the Howe has still drawn (painted whatever) a better picture then I could ever even hope to do, and he has tackled a subject that is notoriously difficult (Balrogs) due to the lack of material on them. Well done.
I would really like to see more balrog related pics (if any others exist) in a series, likehte old man willow run we has earlier.
BTW did gandalf acutally die during his fight with the Balrog? I have always maintained he did, but my fiancee (who has got to the bit where gandalf returns in Two Towers) insisted that he didn't. Is there any text anywhere proving this? Or is it another Balrog's Wings mystery?
Comment by Magician_ - July 4, 2001 @ 3:49 PM - Rated a 4
This pic certainly got everyone talking. My first gripe is to Gonedaft, could you please chose a nick a little more appropiate! gone daft indeed, I would give the picture a 5 just because it gave me the chance to read that wonderful essay you wrote. You certainly put myself firmly in the "no wings" camp. Thank you. :-)
Now to the pic.
1) The tounge, I have no problem with it really, most creatures etc have a tounge, it IS big, but so' s the balrog, which brings me to point 2
2) Size, even though I never really thought about it too hard I never pictured a balrog as more then 10 or 12 feet in size. This guy is on some serious steriods.
3) Armour. nope never ever. It just not in style this season balrog sweetie darling.
4) Fur, well maybe. Think about it, thick long black fur "could" (only could) help portray the balrog as having a shadow surrounding him, esp to those that had to face him.
5) Wings, see above by Gonedaft.
6) Gandalf. Forgive me for being stupid, but wasnt he Gandalf the GREY until after the fight with Durin's Bane, Grey cloak, greay beard etc.
7) Horns, well why not. If a balrog wanted to inspire terror, horns is a good start.
8) Lighting. the hall has always been in my mind as being a dirty red colour becuase I always pictures the orks carrying burning torches, the chasm I imagine is far darker, this one is too grey.
Well thats about it for me, except to say the Howe has still drawn (painted whatever) a better picture then I could ever even hope to do, and he has tackled a subject that is notoriously difficult (Balrogs) due to the lack of material on them. Well done.
I would really like to see more balrog related pics (if any others exist) in a series, likehte old man willow run we has earlier.
BTW did gandalf acutally die during his fight with the Balrog? I have always maintained he did, but my fiancee (who has got to the bit where gandalf returns in Two Towers) insisted that he didn't. Is there any text anywhere proving this? Or is it another Balrog's Wings mystery?
Comment by Magician_ - July 4, 2001 @ 3:49 PM - Rated a 4
So the picture isn't a literal interperation of JRRT's writing, big DEAL! If you want an entirely literal work, Barlogs, Gandalf, and Middle-earth are all works of fiction. so the literal view would look like this...
I think the Barlog is a little to(o?) generic, Gandalf looks great, The light is eminating from Glamdring and the Barlog. I have never seen so many 5's and 0's.
Comment by VeiledAiel - July 4, 2001 @ 8:46 PM - Rated a 4
So the picture isn't a literal interperation of JRRT's writing, big DEAL! If you want an entirely literal work, Barlogs, Gandalf, and Middle-earth are all works of fiction. so the literal view would look like this...
I think the Barlog is a little to(o?) generic, Gandalf looks great, The light is eminating from Glamdring and the Barlog. I have never seen so many 5's and 0's.
Comment by VeiledAiel - July 4, 2001 @ 8:46 PM - Rated a 4
I agree with LaurelinDorien The balrog and Gandalf look nothing like i imagined them but we do have to give artistic liberty so i give this picture a 4
Howe, did a good job and the only thng that sould possib;y be changed is the Balrog, he should be changed to more of a firey demon who is dark and mysterious
Comment by Southern_Star - July 5, 2001 @ 4:44 AM - Rated a 4
I agree with LaurelinDorien The balrog and Gandalf look nothing like i imagined them but we do have to give artistic liberty so i give this picture a 4
Howe, did a good job and the only thng that sould possib;y be changed is the Balrog, he should be changed to more of a firey demon who is dark and mysterious
Comment by Southern_Star - July 5, 2001 @ 4:44 AM - Rated a 4
Balrogs having great shadow's like wings are enough to show that Balrogs had something at least like wings. This illustration is ok. The best I have seen and it's probably due to the fact that it is moving is Bashki's. No he didn't follow the reading as closely as he should, but the scene where Gandald confronted Balrog in Moria is pretty darn cool.
P.S. I suggest we all refrain from personally insulting eachother here even if we disagree with others opinions. So far most of the illustrated interpretations I've seen have some redeeming quality. This one is ok.
:-)
Comment by wilyumtel - July 5, 2001 @ 4:05 PM - Rated a 3
Balrogs having great shadow's like wings are enough to show that Balrogs had something at least like wings. This illustration is ok. The best I have seen and it's probably due to the fact that it is moving is Bashki's. No he didn't follow the reading as closely as he should, but the scene where Gandald confronted Balrog in Moria is pretty darn cool.
P.S. I suggest we all refrain from personally insulting eachother here even if we disagree with others opinions. So far most of the illustrated interpretations I've seen have some redeeming quality. This one is ok.
:-)
Comment by wilyumtel - July 5, 2001 @ 4:05 PM - Rated a 3
Hmmm, this picture is very innacurate--and where's the fire streaming from him, not to mention his whip. Despite all the mistakes, it's a great picture.
Accuracy: 0
Artistic Greatness: 5
Overall:3
Comment by Allowen - July 5, 2001 @ 6:03 PM - Rated a 3
Hmmm, this picture is very innacurate--and where's the fire streaming from him, not to mention his whip. Despite all the mistakes, it's a great picture.
Accuracy: 0
Artistic Greatness: 5
Overall:3
Comment by Allowen - July 5, 2001 @ 6:03 PM - Rated a 3
i really like it
Comment by Olwe - July 8, 2001 @ 10:59 PM - Rated a 5
i really like it
Comment by Olwe - July 8, 2001 @ 10:59 PM - Rated a 5
Even though the Balrog is very different from the way it was described, it's no less accurate than a lot of pictures I've seen on book jackets... and no matter what the accuracy is, the art quality is very high... I'd say, over all, a 4.
Comment by Planeswalker_Maloran - August 15, 2001 @ 7:12 PM - Rated a 4
Even though the Balrog is very different from the way it was described, it's no less accurate than a lot of pictures I've seen on book jackets... and no matter what the accuracy is, the art quality is very high... I'd say, over all, a 4.
Comment by Planeswalker_Maloran - August 15, 2001 @ 7:12 PM - Rated a 4
Comment by pirexian - August 20, 2001 @ 9:52 PM - Rated a 5
Comment by pirexian - August 20, 2001 @ 9:52 PM - Rated a 5
1:some balrogs do have wings not all.......this one isnt supposed to
2:the balrogs flames should consume gandalf and himself....in the book gandalf speaks of being consumed in the balrogs flame and then the balrogs flame is quenched by the deep water under moria.....duh
3:this balrog does have hair.....its supposed to......go by the book.
4:awsome pic man......sweet.....o hope the movie is gpood too.
Comment by AmNDell - August 28, 2001 @ 10:26 PM - Rated a 4
1:some balrogs do have wings not all.......this one isnt supposed to
2:the balrogs flames should consume gandalf and himself....in the book gandalf speaks of being consumed in the balrogs flame and then the balrogs flame is quenched by the deep water under moria.....duh
3:this balrog does have hair.....its supposed to......go by the book.
4:awsome pic man......sweet.....o hope the movie is gpood too.
Comment by AmNDell - August 28, 2001 @ 10:26 PM - Rated a 4
Comment by arcturus55 - September 28, 2001 @ 1:39 PM - Rated a 4
Comment by arcturus55 - September 28, 2001 @ 1:39 PM - Rated a 4
I as much as anyone like artists to remain true to the book's content.
However, some people take this too far and become overheated over the minutia of the book. Although I agree that the picture does not fully convey my imagining of the story, I still appreciate the artistic content. It depicts Howe's artistic interpretation of the scene. Everyone has a different idea of what it was like. I believe this is the joy of Tolkien's work; the ability to conjure unique and vivid images in the readers mind.
I feel that many people need to loosen up on the subject of total accuracy or they will have a heart attack if they go to the new LOTR film. The images will not be totally acurate in this film, but overall people will still admire the artistic content and Jackson's imagining of Middle-Earth.
If you have actually seen a Balrog, then you can rant on like mad for ever about it's inside leg measurement and the length of it's little toe!! If you have not then only Prof JRRT can properly answer this problem.
Not Howe's best but I still like it.
Love the art and don't fret!!
Comment by Taniquetil - November 14, 2001 @ 5:08 PM - Rated a 4
I as much as anyone like artists to remain true to the book's content.
However, some people take this too far and become overheated over the minutia of the book. Although I agree that the picture does not fully convey my imagining of the story, I still appreciate the artistic content. It depicts Howe's artistic interpretation of the scene. Everyone has a different idea of what it was like. I believe this is the joy of Tolkien's work; the ability to conjure unique and vivid images in the readers mind.
I feel that many people need to loosen up on the subject of total accuracy or they will have a heart attack if they go to the new LOTR film. The images will not be totally acurate in this film, but overall people will still admire the artistic content and Jackson's imagining of Middle-Earth.
If you have actually seen a Balrog, then you can rant on like mad for ever about it's inside leg measurement and the length of it's little toe!! If you have not then only Prof JRRT can properly answer this problem.
Not Howe's best but I still like it.
Love the art and don't fret!!
Comment by Taniquetil - November 14, 2001 @ 5:08 PM - Rated a 4
Nice Balrog
Comment by DieHard - November 16, 2001 @ 6:35 PM - Rated a 5
Nice Balrog
Comment by DieHard - November 16, 2001 @ 6:35 PM - Rated a 5
to mister some balrogs do have wings not all.......this one isnt supposed to
2:the balrogs flames should consume gandalf and himself....in the book gandalf speaks of being consumed in the balrogs flame and then the balrogs flame is quenched by the deep water under moria.....duh
3:this balrog does have hair.....its supposed to......go by the book.
let`s quote the book shall we?
"It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, AND IT`S WINGS WERE SPREADFROM WALL TO WALL"!!!
also I cannot find a single reference to hair or scales anywhere
also the fire thing is incorect it merly says that the balrog whiped Gandalfs knees and they fell. And the flame went out
let me quote "With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and the throngs lashed and curled about the wizards knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss. 'Fly, you fools!' he cried, and he was gone.
and the fires went out, and blank darkness fell."
the fires on the bridge went out
nothing about "the balrogs flames should consume gandalf and himself"
even if all that were true it is still a darn good picture and deserves a 7, but I will have to give it a 5
Comment by theringbearer - November 17, 2001 @ 9:14 PM - Rated a 5
to mister some balrogs do have wings not all.......this one isnt supposed to
2:the balrogs flames should consume gandalf and himself....in the book gandalf speaks of being consumed in the balrogs flame and then the balrogs flame is quenched by the deep water under moria.....duh
3:this balrog does have hair.....its supposed to......go by the book.
let`s quote the book shall we?
"It stepped forward slowly onto the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, AND IT`S WINGS WERE SPREADFROM WALL TO WALL"!!!
also I cannot find a single reference to hair or scales anywhere
also the fire thing is incorect it merly says that the balrog whiped Gandalfs knees and they fell. And the flame went out
let me quote "With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and the throngs lashed and curled about the wizards knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss. 'Fly, you fools!' he cried, and he was gone.
and the fires went out, and blank darkness fell."
the fires on the bridge went out
nothing about "the balrogs flames should consume gandalf and himself"
even if all that were true it is still a darn good picture and deserves a 7, but I will have to give it a 5
Comment by theringbearer - November 17, 2001 @ 9:14 PM - Rated a 5
I like the way Gandalf is struggling with the beast, but I must admit that I pictured the Balrog differently, but as theringbearer said, it's still a fantastic picture.
Comment by Boromir83 - November 20, 2001 @ 7:27 AM - Rated a 5
I like the way Gandalf is struggling with the beast, but I must admit that I pictured the Balrog differently, but as theringbearer said, it's still a fantastic picture.
Comment by Boromir83 - November 20, 2001 @ 7:27 AM - Rated a 5
Go Gandalf!!
Comment by samwise-gamgee - January 18, 2002 @ 6:42 PM - Rated a 5
Go Gandalf!!
Comment by samwise-gamgee - January 18, 2002 @ 6:42 PM - Rated a 5
Comment by tookofsmials - February 26, 2002 @ 1:36 AM
Comment by tookofsmials - February 26, 2002 @ 1:36 AM
What an priceless picture!
Comment by snowlass - March 20, 2002 @ 12:40 AM - Rated a 5
What an priceless picture!
Comment by snowlass - March 20, 2002 @ 12:40 AM - Rated a 5
In the book, Gandalf explains to Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas that as he was falling, he was being burned by flames all around him. So, I always amagined the Balrog much farther down, with gandalf higher above, drowning in flame, but still being pulled down by the whip....Maybee it's just me. But I still give it a 5 'cause I really like it...
Comment by Gandalpollo - March 22, 2002 @ 11:27 AM - Rated a 5
In the book, Gandalf explains to Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas that as he was falling, he was being burned by flames all around him. So, I always amagined the Balrog much farther down, with gandalf higher above, drowning in flame, but still being pulled down by the whip....Maybee it's just me. But I still give it a 5 'cause I really like it...
Comment by Gandalpollo - March 22, 2002 @ 11:27 AM - Rated a 5
Everyone has his style, just like anime works as they differ greatly from real scenes. But see, real scenes comes from minds but not movies.Howe has the definitely right to alter the scene a tad bit in his mind. Mithril definitely have to learn his manners all over again. How can you call anyone a moron?Not unless yourself. You sure you can draw a pic as great as this? Not really. You are just jealous of Howe. You ought to review your words
Comment by snowlass - March 28, 2002 @ 7:48 AM
Everyone has his style, just like anime works as they differ greatly from real scenes. But see, real scenes comes from minds but not movies.Howe has the definitely right to alter the scene a tad bit in his mind. Mithril definitely have to learn his manners all over again. How can you call anyone a moron?Not unless yourself. You sure you can draw a pic as great as this? Not really. You are just jealous of Howe. You ought to review your words
Comment by snowlass - March 28, 2002 @ 7:48 AM
ouch, I hope he doesnt hurt himself.. *lol* Very good pic.
Comment by Silma - April 2, 2002 @ 1:07 PM - Rated a 5
ouch, I hope he doesnt hurt himself.. *lol* Very good pic.
Comment by Silma - April 2, 2002 @ 1:07 PM - Rated a 5
This one of Howes best pictures and I hate all who says they can do better ones themselves. I'd like to see mithril post an image of the same scene but better than this one!
Comment by TuorSonOfHuor - May 3, 2002 @ 9:24 AM - Rated a 5
This one of Howes best pictures and I hate all who says they can do better ones themselves. I'd like to see mithril post an image of the same scene but better than this one!
Comment by TuorSonOfHuor - May 3, 2002 @ 9:24 AM - Rated a 5
Yikes! That's very cool! Falling doesn't hurt...hehe...that Balrog gets his just desserts! Maybe someone should write a survival book..."How to Attack Monsterous Beasts"...
Comment by celadinebanks - July 9, 2002 @ 8:38 AM - Rated a 5
Yikes! That's very cool! Falling doesn't hurt...hehe...that Balrog gets his just desserts! Maybe someone should write a survival book..."How to Attack Monsterous Beasts"...
Comment by celadinebanks - July 9, 2002 @ 8:38 AM - Rated a 5
...for taking the time to write in such detail. Your efforts are much appreciated!
Comment by ahimsa - February 23, 2003 @ 7:52 PM
...for taking the time to write in such detail. Your efforts are much appreciated!
Comment by ahimsa - February 23, 2003 @ 7:52 PM
IT IS IN THE TOLKIEN'S BOOK OF ALL THE CREATURES IN MIDDLE EARTH, CHECK IT OUT SOME TIME.
Comment by TheshardsofNarsil - April 9, 2003 @ 4:23 PM - Rated a 5
IT IS IN THE TOLKIEN'S BOOK OF ALL THE CREATURES IN MIDDLE EARTH, CHECK IT OUT SOME TIME.
Comment by TheshardsofNarsil - April 9, 2003 @ 4:23 PM - Rated a 5
No. Howe is a really good artist, but this is not his best. It's just . . . . no.
DragonStella
Comment by DragonStella - July 3, 2003 @ 7:16 PM - Rated a 2
No. Howe is a really good artist, but this is not his best. It's just . . . . no.
DragonStella
Comment by DragonStella - July 3, 2003 @ 7:16 PM - Rated a 2
Dude that Gandalf was perfect, the Balrog was great, butyou should have more fire on the Balrog. In the future you should draw more battles like that.
Comment by KarateFrog13 - November 29, 2003 @ 7:25 PM - Rated a 5
It's original, cool, action packed, and a convincing rendition of a battle between two maiar. looks like something out of the Kalevala or the eldar edda. AND I LOVE WINGS ON BALROGS!!!! but the plate armour on the balrog's right shoulder and breast just messes it up! john howe has great style, but it's just alittle too conformist to conventional northern european design, and more often than not, his obsession with high gothic armour only makes his work look less like middle earth, and more generic.
i'll give it a 4 though, because i like the gandalf alot.
Comment by mellon_edhellen - February 2, 2004 @ 6:53 PM - Rated a 4
Grteat work! *speechless*
Comment by Samwise93 - March 18, 2004 @ 2:51 AM - Rated a 5
MArvellous!
Comment by Loopy - June 26, 2004 @ 3:45 PM - Rated a 5
this is just wonderful it shows why Howe is my fav
Comment by erinhue - June 26, 2004 @ 4:21 PM - Rated a 5
man this thing is friggen sweet, although i agree with Vega, that it shouldnt have armor and...fur. But Howe doesn't need criticism, he needs an award. i give it a five.
Comment by sherpa_derpa - January 19, 2006 @ 4:10 PM - Rated a 5
Fantastic pic!
But where is the flame?
Comment by Mad_Baggins - August 27, 2006 @ 6:32 AM - Rated a 4